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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit (Read 240264 times)
Markovich
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #69 - 07/16/12 at 01:35:26
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11.0-0-0 is illegal because White's queen is on d1. 

White's best chance of equality after 7...Nf5 is 8.Bxf4 Nf6 and now either 9.Bg5 or 9.Qd3, depending upon which bishop he wants to preserve. This is where I expected Stefan to defend White's chances. 8.Nge2 looks worse to me.

How much of an advantage Black gets in these lines isn't very important if he gets any advantage at all, since in that case, straightforward, active play deals with White's whole conception.
  

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Hadron
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #68 - 07/16/12 at 01:23:55
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Markovich wrote on 07/15/12 at 14:00:04:

I would prefer Black after 10...0-0-0 11.Bg5 (otherwise White seems to have trouble  defending his d-pawn) 12...Qe5 or just 12...h6. =+.


Seems? For once I agree with you after 10...0–0–0 11.Bg5 h6 there is some advantage to Black given the openness of the position and having the bishop pair versus a pair of stagnant knights but how much of an advantage is the moot point.
I would ask isn’t 11.Bg5 a bit on the daft side because it removes the bishop from the control of the central dark squares, more specifically e5? 
After 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bxf6 (12.Bh4 g5) Qxf6 13. 0–0–0 Bc5 (On 13…Bb4 White simply plays 14.a3 then if 14…Ba5 15.Rhf1 or 14…Bxc3 then 15.Nxc3 Both of which do not look that bad for White) 14.Ng3 Rhe8 (If 14… Bg6 15.Nge4 still picks off one of Blacks powerful bishop pair) 15.Rhel (with the idea of still looking to split the bishop pair) and white has (all be it minimal) initiative in the position.
This leaves one to think 11.Bg5 is not the best for White, why not just play 11.0-0-0 considering that Black must at least expend a tempo to free the tall pawn on f8, I do not see just where is this trouble for the d pawn is going to spring from?
Hadron
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Markovich
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #67 - 07/15/12 at 14:00:04
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I would prefer Black after 10...0-0-0 11.Bg5 (otherwise White seems to have trouble  defending his d-pawn) 12...Qe5 or just 12...h6. =+.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #66 - 07/15/12 at 07:37:08
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Markovich wrote on 07/15/12 at 00:40:54:
Stefan, 7...Nf5 8.Nge2 Nf6 =+. Truly, 8...g5 had not entered my head. I'm not grubbing for pawns; I'm trying to play nice, normal, safe chess and get a slight advantage. That's my whole thing with 4...d5.

So what's your deal after I play 8...Nf6?

I looked at it, but admit that I was more interested in 8...g5. From memory: 8.Nge2 Nf6 9.Bxf5. Handing over the two bishops to the opponent. It is unfortunate that the exchange develops Black, but the Nf5 is a strong piece and must go. 9...Bxf5 10.Bxf4. For example: 10...Qd7 11.Qd2.
 
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Rybka4 assessed the position as -0.05, and this from a software inclined to overestimate the value of bishops. In my opinion chances are equal.
  
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Markovich
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #65 - 07/15/12 at 00:40:54
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Stefan, 7...Nf5 8.Nge2 Nf6 =+. Truly, 8...g5 had not entered my head. I'm not grubbing for pawns; I'm trying to play nice, normal, safe chess and get a slight advantage. That's my whole thing with 4...d5.

So what's your deal after I play 8...Nf6?
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #64 - 07/15/12 at 00:12:53
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@gewgaw: In your analysis White can apparently vary his play and prefer a somewhat safer set-up: 1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8.Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 Be2+ 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2 Qe7 14. Bb4 Nf6 15. Bf3 0-0-0 16. d6 cxd6 17. Nxb7 Rd7 18. Na5 Qe3. Here you continue with 19. Rd1, but 19.Nc6!? followed by an eventual Nd4 looks solid and good: White keeps his pieces together and defends easily. - However, there is still 9...Qe7 when White has more problems to overcome. 

@Markovich: I haven't checked your 7...Nf5 8.Bxf4 in detail. The reason why I like 8.Nge2 is that it invites 8...g5, similar to a King's Gambit. White appears to be OK. If Black avoids to protect pawn f4, White can still take it, maybe under better circumstances. 

My Fyfe research began a few years ago, this story seemed worth to be told, no matter whether 3.d4 was entirely correct. I found sources and old games. Markovich's idea 4....d5 shed new light on the topic, which was highly welcome. However, in my view 4...d5 leads to an open battle, similar to other classical gambits which are still unsolved after 150 years or more. This part of the Fyfe is full of sharp tactics, for both sides. 

Severino wrote on 07/14/12 at 10:12:22:
2. After 3.d4 Nxd4, it is White, rather than Black, who has his work cut out to get an even position. This could certainly be an argument against playing the Fyfe Gambit, though the positions seem to be complex enough to give chances in practical play.

Yes, it is an experiment. The computer brought new insights: piece activity and open files are worth a lot. But 3.d4 is still an extreme case. 

Severino wrote on 07/14/12 at 10:12:22:
 
6. Considering the number of controversial openings that have had their advocates, it seems hard to believe that, following Peter Fyfe, the Fyfe gambit seems had no champion, if only for a brief period of time. Openings are played for a variety of reasons. Has there subsequently been no Glasgow player who has taken up the Fyfe Gambit? Perhaps there was, as Stefan Bücker mentions a later thematic tournament.

Perhaps the 1917 tournament was sponsored by Fyfe, who died in 1940. No foreign participants, as far as I know, which isn't surprising during a war. - The Fyfe gambit makes sense only when you trust the Belgrade Gambit. The Belgrade Gambit was played only in 1945 by Trajkovic (a first attempt in 1938 by Kurt Richter was a failure) and fully rehabilitated only decades later by Bruce Monson. 

Thank you very much, Severino, for sharing your thoughts. The sources you mention (Miller, Pierce) are important. I had already mentioned Google Books, many sources are available. The British Library "delivered" two games from 1917.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #63 - 07/14/12 at 13:26:46
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Markovich wrote on 07/14/12 at 13:00:22:

I just about choked when I read that thanks are due to Hadron for the mere mention of this gambit. Thanks are due all right, to Stefan, gewgaw, Smyslov Fan and me for wracking our brains and producing all these definite ideas. So thank the people responsible for the actual work, for crying out loud.

You forgot to mention Stefan Meyer-Kahlen as well..... and there is nothing to thank me for I just asked a question, it was the maestro who picked up the ball and ran with it so the credit should go to him  Grin
Hadron.
  

I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #62 - 07/14/12 at 13:00:22
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Well, the discussion has mostly concerned 4.f4 d5; we haven't really discussed the the more prosaic alternatives much. My interest in 4...d5 stems from my belief.that if there is an active method of obtaining even a slight advantage, we can dismiss this gambit on a practical basis. I am not yet ready to agree that 4...d5 fails to produce some advantage for Black, the most critical line being 5.exd5 Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4 Nf5; critical in my view anyway.

Stefan already expressed his view, so far uncontradicted, that 4.f4 leads to Black's advantage by other means. Personally I think that 4.Nf3 also leads to Black's advantage.

I just about choked when I read that thanks are due to Hadron for the mere mention of this gambit. Thanks are due all right, to Stefan, gewgaw, Smyslov Fan and me for wracking our brains and producing all these definite ideas. So thank the people responsible for the actual work, for crying out loud.
  

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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #61 - 07/14/12 at 10:12:22
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A few observations from the neutral corner.


1. From the discussion presented here so far it seems a clear refutation of the Fyfe Gambit is not at hand, perhaps being an example that White can get away with quite a lot in the opening.

2. After 3.d4 Nxd4, it is White, rather than Black, who has his work cut out to get an even position. This could certainly be an argument against playing the Fyfe Gambit, though the positions seem to be complex enough to give chances in practical play..

3. The Fyfe Gambit appears to have originated around 1883, and at least for the following decade it 
was kept in the discussion. For example, in The American Supplement to the “Synopsis”.... Miller, J.W. (ed). 1885, p. 56, it receives  three columns (each based on a game), some comments and it is said that Blackburne considered it to lead to an even game. Pierce & Pierce  (1888. Pierce Gambit …, p. 4 ) said that it was “worthy of a  better analysis than it has received so far”, and as earlier mentioned, it is included in Freeborough and Ranken (1893: Chess Openings Ancient and Modern …, p. 227).

4. This is for people with an ample chess library, but from my limited access, the Fyfe Gambit seems to have essentially disappeared from more recent chess opening manuals. Was this because of a particular paper or analysis, did it just fade away, or is it indeed mentioned in later books (how about early editions of MCO)?

5. There are a remarkably low number of Fyfe Gambit games in databases, and most of these games do not start 1. e4 e5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3. d4, but rather 1.e4 e5 2.d4 Nc6 3.Nc3, 1. d4 Nc6 2.e4 e5 3.Nc3, or 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.Nc3 (there are some pretty detailed books on the Nimzowitsch defence, but none mentions this move). As mentioned by Stefan Bücker, one almost suspects that the 3rd move in these games were unintentional.

6. Considering the number of controversial openings that have had their advocates, it seems hard to believe that, following Peter Fyfe, the Fyfe gambit seems had no champion, if only for a brief period of time. Openings are played for a variety of reasons. Has there subsequently been no Glasgow player who has taken up the Fyfe Gambit? Perhaps there was, as Stefan Bücker mentions a later thematic tournament.

7. After 3...Nxd4. 4.f4 Bb4 5.Nf3 Bxc3 6.bxc3 Nxf3 7.Qxf3 exf4 8.Bc4 Qe7 9.Bxf4 Nf6 10. e5 d5 11.Bxd5 Bg4 12. Qd3 0-0-0, as given in Freeborough and Ranken, White has Bxb7 to maintain chances.

8. Finally, thanks are due to Hadron for digging out the Fyfe Gambit, which at least to me was unknown. For people with the right resources it looks like an excellent topic for chess archaeology, and Peter Fyfe seems to have been an interesting character in general.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #60 - 07/14/12 at 06:20:40
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/13/12 at 21:07:45:
[quote author=060416060016610 link=1341412133/57#57 date=1342205726][quote author=474557474157200 

Can you give me a hint how I can reproduce this little miracle in my own home laboratory? I have vague ideas of 14.Bb4 a5 15.Ba3 b5, but it is hard to believe that White should be worse.


Long lines, many blunders, but White´s problem are the weak queenside pawns.

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8.
Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 Be2+ 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2 Qe7 14.
Bc3 (14. Bb4 Nf6 15. Bf3 O-O-O 16. d6 cxd6 17. Nxb7 Rd7 18. Na5 Qe3 19. Rd1 d5
(19... Ne4 20. Be1 f5 21. Rd4 d5 22. Bxe4 dxe4 23. Nc4 Qxd4 24. Nxd4 Rxd4 25.
Na3 g5 26. Ke2) 20. Nd4 Ne4 21. Bxe4 dxe4 22. Nc4 Qxd4 23. Rxd4 Rxd4 24. b3
Rd1+ 25. Be1 Rhd8 26. g3 g5) 14... Qxc5 15. Bxg7 f6 16. Bxh8 Kf7 17. Re1 Nh6
18. Bxf6 Kxf6 19. Nxf4 Ng4 20. Nd3 Qd4 21. c3 Qc4 22. h3 Ne5 23. Re3 Kg7 24.
Ke1 Nxd3+ 25. Bxd3 Qxa2 26. Rf1 Qa1+ 27. Kd2 Qxb2+ 28. Bc2 Rd8 29. Rf5 c6 30.
Rd3 Rxd5 31. Rfxd5 cxd5 32. Rxd5 h6 (a-pawn!)

  

The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #59 - 07/13/12 at 23:47:41
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I also don't think 4...d5 is "the" refutation; I just think it's a good, active move. I'm happy that we've shed a little light on it. But I'm surprised that after 5.exd5 Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4 Nf5, you prefer 8.Nge2. I thought 8.Bxf4 was best. What's you view of 8.Bxf4 Nf6 9.Bg5 Nd6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Qe2 Be7? I thought you would defend White's chances there.

Black's keeping the pawn is fine and may perhaps be be best, but 4...d5 fits nicely with a certain philosophy of how to play the Black pieces. If the slightest advantage can be demonstated with active play, without pawn-grabbing, that pretty well kills this gambit. As you know.

Is it surprising that in 1883 they preferred to grab the pawn?
  

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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #58 - 07/13/12 at 21:07:45
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gewgaw wrote on 07/13/12 at 18:55:26:
gewgaw wrote on 07/12/12 at 10:35:52:
I´ve rarely seen such a crazy line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8. Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 Be2+ 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2 *


13. ...Qe7 again Smiley and the more you analyse this position, the more the engine will prefer Black; very often White´s pawns on the queenside will be proven as a target for queen.

Can you give me a hint how I can reproduce this little miracle in my own home laboratory? I have vague ideas of 14.Bb4 a5 15.Ba3 b5, but it is hard to believe that White should be worse.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #57 - 07/13/12 at 18:55:26
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gewgaw wrote on 07/12/12 at 10:35:52:
I´ve rarely seen such a crazy line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8.
Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 Be2+ 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2 *


13. ...Qe7 again Smiley and the more you analyse this position, the more the engine will prefer Black; very often White´s pawns on the queenside will be proven as a target for queen.
  

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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #56 - 07/13/12 at 18:16:45
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Markovich wrote on 07/13/12 at 12:03:06:
5...Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4 Nf5 looks quite sensible to me, and so does 5...Bf5 as we discussed. So at minimum,Black is not worse and has various ways to try to produce the full point.

I could say the same: White is not worse in the 4.f4 d5 lines discussed so far, und he has alternatives not yet explored which may well give him an advantage. For example 5.exd5 Qe7 6.fxe5 Qxe5+ 7.Nge2. - In particular, I can't see that the discussed lines are somehow "not in gambit-style". Most of them seem rather sharp and unbalanced, and only thanks to our mutual use of engines this stuff often peters out into a draw. In the hands of a Blackburne it could have scored nicely.  

Regarding your proposal 5...Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4 Nf5, my reply would be 8.Nge2. 

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Altogether, I don't think that 4.f4 d5 is "the" refutation. In the four old 4.f4 games which I found from 1883 and 1917, 4...Bb4 was the only move played, simply keeping the pawn. Not a bad idea, in my opinion.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #55 - 07/13/12 at 12:03:06
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Personally I prefer White in gewgaw's line. I don't think that Smyslov Fan's h4 check can be critical, just for the reason that Kf2 becomes viable. This same idea is unviable without the check, since the king has no flight-square on g2.  B

5...Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4 Nf5 looks quite sensible to me, and so does 5...Bf5 as we discussed. So at minimum,Black is not worse and has various ways to try to produce the full point.
« Last Edit: 07/13/12 at 15:41:31 by Markovich »  

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