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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business? (Read 157100 times)
Keano
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #43 - 08/09/13 at 14:10:28
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Neric wrote on 08/20/12 at 09:12:40:
Let us start with the Kaufman suggestion which I think is bad. The problem is, that regardless what I suggest, the computer will always add 1 pawn-unit to the white position and say that white is better. 

Anyways, his mainline goes:
12. ....Qa5
13. Bd2 Qa6
14. Rhe1 Rfc8
15. Nb5 c4
16. Bc3!

This is dubious for multiple reasons.
1. If black plays Qa5, he should follow up with Rfb8. The move Qa6 is not forced and looks like a simple waste of tempo. It also sets up black for the fork on c7 and that cannot be the best solution.

2. c5-c4 should only be played if it leads to something concrete. If you play this move too early, you allow white to plant a knight on c6 (via d4) or open the b-file for future operations.

My suggested improvements over Kaufmans mainline would be: 
13.... Rfb8 14.Nb5 Qd8 (the queen prevents e5 breaks) with Nc7 to follow, not Nb6!
and
15. ... Ne8 with the same idea

His alternative looks dubious to me also:
12.......Qb6
13.Qe2 Rfb8
14. Bd2 Qb3
15. Rhb1 Nb6
16. Ra3 Qc4
17. Qe1 "and white is consolidating his extra pawn".

There are absolutely pointless moves in this line. The whole black play starting with Qb3 looks simply artificial and it discoordinates the black pieces. I am not even talking about his assessment as consolidation of the extra pawn means nothing in the Benko. Like in the Berlin Defence, it doesn't matter to consolidate the advantage, it is all about realizing it and that is impossible if you can't break through.

The "correct" sequence in the Qb6-line would simply be 14...Rfb8 15. Bd2 Ne8 16. Rhb1 Nc7 and Qa6 next. While computers go crazy about the exchange of queens "consolidating the extra pawn", every Benko-player knows that it is thematic. It is the positional "trap" that makes the Benko so attractive.

Going back to the Carlsen game, we notice, that he improved upon Bd2 by playing Nb5 immediately. This doesn't change the black plan as he can go for the exchange by Ne8-c7 and if Bg5 then Kf8. There is still a full game ahead, but black should have the typical Benko compensation as long as he doesn't touch his pawn structure.


In that last line:
12.......Qb6
13.Qe2 Rfb8
14. Bd2 Qb3
15. Rhb1 Nb6
16. Ra3 Qc4
17. Qe1 "and white is consolidating his extra pawn".

I tend to also dis-agree with the assesment, but I do like the 14...Qb3 move and Blacks play up to here.

17...Qb4 and now what? Has White anything better than repaeating moves? He seems in a bit of a tangle to me. 
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #42 - 04/05/13 at 03:59:29
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Hi, I'm a 2200 player, play the benko as black and this line (inspired by Kaufman) as white. I've played quite a few games with the line on both sides. 

Of course my level (and luckily the level of my opponents) is too low to even think about "a flaw-less" game, but my general impression is that with "normal" benko moves white will often end in a 4 rook or 4 rook + queen endgame (some somehow black-squared bishops tend be exchanged on the long diagonal, the mighty b5 and c4 knights for their colleagues quite often) with the extra pawn but with pawns on b3 and a4 and passive rooks. These endgames are (remarkably!) easier to win with black as it's difficult to make progress and as usual black has  pressure. When the queens come off the board the typical f7-f5 is a regular guest and now e4 can become weak.

All in all i'm not too scared about this line though I still play it as white. I think white must avoid the aforementioned endgames though this means he must be careful in placing the knights on b5 and c4 (my understanding is the exchange of the bishops generally favours white).
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #41 - 03/27/13 at 22:38:42
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barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:34:41:
tony37 wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:18:45:
barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 14:59:32:
we have not lost solid black systems but almost all of the black gambits have been shown to be tenuous and bordering on unplayability

what black gambits are you talking about?


benko, blumenfeld, budapest, albin and the like


Can you give a brief summary, i.e. lines, which lead to nearly unplayable lines to have a starting point for discussion?
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #40 - 03/27/13 at 18:06:02
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MartinC wrote on 03/27/13 at 16:06:31:
Other than the Budapest being played by Ivanchuk today you mean Smiley In general of course they're really not the right sort of openings for this sort of event. 

Have computers actually made much difference to 5 Bg5 in the Blumenfeld? I  had the impression that an awful lot the lines were very strategic.


i stand, er sit (!) corrected in this matter of the budapest!
(as far as making an appearance at this high level of play)

timing is everything, eh?

hahahaha

edited to add: well chcuky was crushed in that Bf4 line wasn't he?


maybe we can out that one in the dustbin along with the benko, like i suggested?

Grin

teasing of course ... four flags for chucky!
« Last Edit: 03/27/13 at 20:53:33 by barnaby »  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #39 - 03/27/13 at 16:06:31
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Other than the Budapest being played by Ivanchuk today you mean Smiley In general of course they're really not the right sort of openings for this sort of event. 

Have computers actually made much difference to 5 Bg5 in the Blumenfeld? I  had the impression that an awful lot the lines were very strategic.
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #38 - 03/27/13 at 15:52:54
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tony37 wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:41:57:
barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:34:41:

benko, blumenfeld, budapest, albin and the like

albin: I tend to agree/ benko: maybe/ but what's supposedly wrong with the blumenfeld and the budapest?


Bg5 for the blumenfeld and Bf4 for the budapest


Smiley

edited to add: think we will see any of these lines in any remaining candidate games?
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #37 - 03/27/13 at 15:50:50
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Don't think we disagree much Smiley I can't see the benko being busted to a forced win for white or anything, but even an annoying edge which is unamusing for black to play against would deter usage to some extent.

Rather depends how hard it is to play for both sides of course.
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #36 - 03/27/13 at 15:41:57
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barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:34:41:

benko, blumenfeld, budapest, albin and the like

albin: I tend to agree/ benko: maybe/ but what's supposedly wrong with the blumenfeld and the budapest?
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #35 - 03/27/13 at 15:34:41
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tony37 wrote on 03/27/13 at 15:18:45:
barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 14:59:32:
we have not lost solid black systems but almost all of the black gambits have been shown to be tenuous and bordering on unplayability

what black gambits are you talking about?


benko, blumenfeld, budapest, albin and the like
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #34 - 03/27/13 at 15:18:45
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barnaby wrote on 03/27/13 at 14:59:32:
we have not lost solid black systems but almost all of the black gambits have been shown to be tenuous and bordering on unplayability

what black gambits are you talking about?
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #33 - 03/27/13 at 14:59:32
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MartinC wrote on 03/27/13 at 09:21:55:
I'd be very surprised if it went that far Smiley We've had very strong computers for a while now and I don't think we've actually yet lost any major black systems?

A festering sore might well be possible.... 
(The g3/b3/Rb1 system might actually still qualify as one of those?).


i respectfully disagree ... we have only has these multi-cores at this level for three years and since that time many things have changed and are not going to change back

we have not lost solid black systems but almost all of the black gambits have been shown to be tenuous and bordering on unplayability  ... on the other side, we seeing that the time honored classic systems almost all lead to draws and that white does not have any lasting initiatives that lead to winning positions in any main systems unless black makes errors

  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #32 - 03/27/13 at 09:21:55
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I'd be very surprised if it went that far Smiley We've had very strong computers for a while now and I don't think we've actually yet lost any major black systems?

A festering sore might well be possible.... 
(The g3/b3/Rb1 system might actually still qualify as one of those?).
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #31 - 03/27/13 at 01:24:03
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Lauri Torni wrote on 03/22/13 at 10:05:41:
MartinC wrote on 03/22/13 at 09:35:30:
Hasn't the benko always been like that though? Sundry 'near' refutations have popped into existence over time and then eventually semi neutralised.


Yes. 

first 1.e4! (many of my clubmates used to do this Grin
then 5.e3!
then 6.g3 + 7.b3
then 5.b6!
then 5.f3!
then 8.e4! without h3
then 5.Nf3!
then g3+10.Rb1!
now 13.a4!

order semirandom Smiley



i think this time, with the aid of these multi-core engines, the wound may actually be gangrenous and lead to fatality
  
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #30 - 03/22/13 at 10:05:41
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MartinC wrote on 03/22/13 at 09:35:30:
Hasn't the benko always been like that though? Sundry 'near' refutations have popped into existence over time and then eventually semi neutralised.


Yes. 

first 1.e4! (many of my clubmates used to do this Grin
then 5.e3!
then 6.g3 + 7.b3
then 5.b6!
then 5.f3!
then 8.e4! without h3
then 5.Nf3!
then g3+10.Rb1!
now 13.a4!

order semirandom Smiley
  
1.Nf3! -  beat your opponent by killing his zest for life.
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Re: Does 12.a4/Qe2 put the Benko out of business?
Reply #29 - 03/22/13 at 09:35:30
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Hasn't the benko always been like that though? Sundry 'near' refutations have popped into existence over time and then eventually semi neutralised.
  
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