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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What the heck to play against the semi-slav?? (Read 46501 times)
Lauri Torni
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #20 - 11/27/12 at 22:38:12
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Anders wrote on 11/27/12 at 22:18:40:
I see that 5.g3 is labelled under "desperation" in the initial post but anyway think that might be a good (practical) try. 

There is a ChessBase 60 minutes video  "Attacking the semi-slav with g3" where Robert Ris advocates it.




I have seen it. It seems too speculative to me..... and  even the closed system with Be7 not considered in the DVD instead of Bd6 seen in the DVD is an improved closed catalan for black.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #19 - 11/27/12 at 22:18:40
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I see that 5.g3 is labelled under "desperation" in the initial post but anyway think that might be a good (practical) try. 

There is a ChessBase 60 minutes video  "Attacking the semi-slav with g3" where Robert Ris advocates it.
  
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fling
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #18 - 11/27/12 at 20:38:09
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That is true, the Marshall is for sure more fun than an exchange. Even though Morozevich last game in the Exchange Slav was not boring...
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #17 - 11/27/12 at 20:37:17
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kylemeister wrote on 11/27/12 at 19:19:08:
Aside from a line commonly chosen by GMs with White being "sterile," I'm glad to learn that a reputedly main line by Black on move 3 allows White to choose straightaway how he wants to be better in the endgame.


It's a fair punishment for making three pawn moves on the first three moves. Morphy would be appalled!

  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #16 - 11/27/12 at 20:18:33
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Basically that's what black got in Ne2 Marshall. See game Timofeev - Frolyanov 2012 (repeated by most strong players holding black pieces there). If that endgame is winnable at some very high level it's another question but it might be good practical choice.
Of course black can make some concessions and get messier position like in: Nepomniachtchi - Pavasovic but I spent a lot of time analysing those positions and imo white can either reduce black to endgame again (even better this time) or play for a win in messy position.
In any case this is breath of fresh air and hope for white comparing to main line Meran.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #15 - 11/27/12 at 19:19:08
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Aside from a line commonly chosen by GMs with White being "sterile," I'm glad to learn that a reputedly main line by Black on move 3 allows White to choose straightaway how he wants to be better in the endgame.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #14 - 11/27/12 at 18:59:15
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Yeah I agree that "slow Slav" is decent try for white, at least the positions are pleasant and black is a bit cramped. I used to play it but there are two problems:
- black can go triangle where he has additional option of f5 while additional options for white (b3, Nbd2) weren't enough for me to want to go for semi-slav type of position
- after 6..Bg4 you get less than in exchange slav imo.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #13 - 11/27/12 at 18:56:47
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BPaulsen wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:47:26:
I'm not sure why only the Botvinnik is mentioned when the Moscow is very solid (6.Bxf6) or satisfactory chaos (6.Bh4). This, to me, represents the main reason 5.Bg5 may not appeal to white players. I prefer white in the Botvinnik, and don't consider learning its ins and outs to be a bad thing - black takes on more risk than white.

I like black in the Meran. It seems like every major development that ever comes out is on his side.

I do find it odd that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is what is marked as "sterile", when of everything you listed that's where I would most want to be white. The bishop pair is practically guaranteed, and the long-term pressure is on black - learning how to make use of it is instructive. Of course, then black has other options (4...e6 5.Nbd2 leads to Colle-Zuckertort positions where black's task is more difficult than white's, and 4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face).


It seemed from ako's OP that he implied he was happy with 5.Bg5 h6. Surely being able to choose between a sharp gambit and a solid space vs. bishops position would be appealing to a typical White player.

I agree with you that some of the descriptions of lines are unusual but that's part of what makes chess interesting - we all have different personal preferences.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #12 - 11/27/12 at 18:54:51
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If we're looking at engine evaluations, the best seems to be the Slow Slav. But the difference between +0.22 and +0.05 is practically nothing in the OTB chess.
As for the correspondence chess, the significance is mainly psychological..  Wink
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #11 - 11/27/12 at 18:47:26
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I'm not sure why only the Botvinnik is mentioned when the Moscow is very solid (6.Bxf6) or satisfactory chaos (6.Bh4). This, to me, represents the main reason 5.Bg5 may not appeal to white players. I prefer white in the Botvinnik, and don't consider learning its ins and outs to be a bad thing - black takes on more risk than white.

I like black in the Meran. It seems like every major development that ever comes out is on his side.

I do find it odd that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.e3 Bf5 is what is marked as "sterile", when of everything you listed that's where I would most want to be white. The bishop pair is practically guaranteed, and the long-term pressure is on black - learning how to make use of it is instructive. Of course, then black has other options (4...e6 5.Nbd2 leads to Colle-Zuckertort positions where black's task is more difficult than white's, and 4...Bg4 is perhaps the most annoying move to face).
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #10 - 11/27/12 at 18:39:24
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punter wrote on 11/27/12 at 18:33:12:
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You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?


After 3...e6 there is 3.e4 which is quite pleasant for white as they choose between better endgame (Bb4+, Nc3), different better endgame (Ne2 in Marshall Gambit) or complicated gambit position in mainline of Marshall Gambit.


Yes. Marshall is good enough for me Smiley I prefer it to Noteboom.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #9 - 11/27/12 at 18:38:47
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Ametanoitos wrote on 11/27/12 at 17:42:27:
Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.


6. Qc2/b3   or

6.Bd3 dc 7.Bc4 b5 and  8.Bd3/Be2

What is your favourite?
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #8 - 11/27/12 at 18:33:12
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Quote:
You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?


After 3...e6 there is 3.e4 which is quite pleasant for white as they choose between better endgame (Bb4+, Nc3), different better endgame (Ne2 in Marshall Gambit) or complicated gambit position in mainline of Marshall Gambit.

Edited:
Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.


I tried to find something in mainlines but the problem is it's analyzed almost to the endgame and endgames even if more pleasant for white are less than you get in exchange for example. I had the same mindset as OP some time ago. Black is very ok in mainlines and they like/know the positions arising.
Kramnik tried studyign the mainline and got his ass handed to him by Anand. Anand got nothing vs semislav hybrid vs Gelfand. If you play with your computer it's difficult ot get anything higher than +0.05 and most of those 0.05+ simplifei to dead drawn endgame soon enough. You can't expect OP making some theoretical break through which neither Kramnik nor Anand were able to make.
Going with exchange or 4.Qb3 is much better way to go imo.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #7 - 11/27/12 at 17:42:27
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Study the Main Lines of Meran. You will do a great gift to yourself.
  
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Re: What the heck to play against the semi-slav??
Reply #6 - 11/27/12 at 17:34:39
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punter wrote on 11/27/12 at 15:45:37:
3.Nc3 and 4.cd5:


You mean transposing into a really lame version of the QGD exchange after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nc3 e6 and now 4. cxd5? Black will get his light-squared bishop out without problems etc, or did I miss something?
  
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