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Question: What is 1. e4 c6 ; 2. d4 d5 ; 3. Ktc3/d2 g6

Caro-Kann

Gurgenidze

both

who cares ?

« Last Modified by: Uberdecker on: 01/14/13 at 15:43:36 »

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Nomenclature issue (Read 7238 times)

Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #10 - 01/15/13 at 13:49:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	Uberdecker wrote on 01/15/13 at 02:34:32: Indeed the Gurgenidze is much more closely related to 3. ...g6 in the Caro-Kann, the ...g6/ ...d5 lines of the Alapin Scilian and the Schlechter Slav than to the other variations of the Modern One might even add The Grünfeld and the ...g6 lines of the Icelandic and Scandinavian. MNb wrote on 01/15/13 at 10:00:54: Actually not that significant as 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c4 avoids the Gurgenidze as well. 3. ...c6 ; 4. Ktc3 d5 ; 5. cd cd is playable due to 5. Ktxd5 e6 and 5. ed Ktf6 no ? MNb wrote on 01/15/13 at 10:00:54: We see the Hungarien Defense as an independent opening as well, even if both White and Black have several ways avialable to avoid it. Are you referring to 3. ...Be7 in the Italian Game ?


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #9 - 01/15/13 at 13:27:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, I suppose I was just needlessly nit-picking. Thanks for the replies nonetheless.


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Vass God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 1105 Joined: 06/22/11	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #8 - 01/15/13 at 13:10:51	Post Tools	Print Post
	3.Nd2 g6 is under B12 in ECO 3.Nc3 g6 is under B15 So the system says: Caro-Kann


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RdC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 868 Joined: 05/17/08	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #7 - 01/15/13 at 10:14:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	How you refer to an opening can be influenced by the context. If you are expecting your opponent to start 1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5, you might comment that you were expecting a Caro-Kann. If the expected sequence was 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7, you would be expecting a Modern. If however, you are studying a position that can be reached from more than one opening, you are more interested in the ideas used in the actual position, rather than how the players got there.


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #6 - 01/15/13 at 10:00:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	Uberdecker wrote on 01/15/13 at 02:34:32: also significant is the fact that in order to ensure that he can play the Gurgenidze, Black must use a Modern Defence move-order Actually not that significant as 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c4 avoids the Gurgenidze as well. But I don't think that a very good criterion. We see the Hungarien Defense as an independent opening as well, even if both White and Black have several ways avialable to avoid it.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #5 - 01/15/13 at 02:34:32	Post Tools	Print Post
	I see what you mean. But the term "Modern Defence" is probably less indicative than "Sicilian Defence" because the latter entails a willingness to adopt the pawn structures arising after Ktf3/ d4/ ...cd/ Ktxd4 (if one discounts the rare Nimzowitsch Variation 2. Ktf3 Ktf6) As far as I know, there are three main "paths" that Black can walk following 1. ... g6 : the Gurgenidze (...d5 with or without ...c6), the Pterodactyl or Sniper as it is now sometimes referred to (a very early ...c5, entailing direct transpositions to the Hyper Accelerated Dragon of the Sicilian and the Schmidt Benoni, as well as a few independent lines) and the variations involving ...d6 with ...e5 and/or ...Kth6. Then there are of course all the transpositions to the Pirc and King's Indian. Indeed the Gurgenidze is much more closely related to 3. ...g6 in the Caro-Kann, the ...g6/ ...d5 lines of the Alapin Scilian and the Schlechter Slav than to the other variations of the Modern, but also significant is the fact that in order to ensure that he can play the Gurgenidze, Black must use a Modern Defence move-order (White can choose 3. e5 in the Caro-Kann and Black is not guaranteed that White will play c3 in the Sicilian).


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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10780 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #4 - 01/15/13 at 01:46:39	Post Tools	Print Post
	The name Modern Defence is somewhat outdated, I think. It tells us about us much as "I'm playing the Sicilian". Perhaps it makes sense to see the Gurgenidze as an independent defence of its own. The Gurgenidze proper, 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 g6, is more closely related to the lines 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 c6/4...d5 and 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.c3 d5 4.e5 c5 5.Nf3 (which also can become a Sicilian via 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.cxd4 d5 6.e5 or even 4...d5). Neither is the Gurgenidze closely related to lines originating from 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 and 3...d6. These all can be reached via 1.e4 d6 while Gurgenidze and the likes can't.

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Viking God Member Offline Posts: 673 Location: Norway Joined: 10/12/04 Gender:	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #3 - 01/14/13 at 22:24:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	This is the gurgenidze variation of the caro kann...


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #2 - 01/14/13 at 19:14:59	Post Tools	Print Post
	Yes, that's certainly one way of looking at it, but there is the counter-argument that there are several lines of the Gurgenidze that cannot be reached through a Caro-Kann move-order, whereas they can all stem from a Modern.


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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4989 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: Nomenclature issue Reply #1 - 01/14/13 at 17:20:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	I think of it as one way of reaching the Gurgenidze, which I think of as a Caro-Kann/Modern hybrid.


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Uberdecker God Member Offline Posts: 641 Joined: 03/21/06	Nomenclature issue 01/14/13 at 14:55:41	Post Tools	Print Post
	Apologies for what might be considered an irrelevant question, but I was curious as to people's opinions. How would you classify the sequence 1. e4 c6 ; 2. d4 d5 ; 3. Ktc3/Ktd2 g6 ? Would you simply call it a side-line of the Caro-Kann or would you say it constitutes a clear transposition to the Gurgenidze System of the Modern Defence ? Thanks.


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