(UTC)
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › Daring Defences to 1. d4 › Dutch › Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
(Moderators: proustiskeen, Hadron, CraigEvans)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ?? (Read 33052 times)
Confused_by_Theory
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 662
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #26 - 11/16/15 at 18:43:44
Post Tools
Hi.

BladezII wrote on 11/13/15 at 10:43:10:
In the case of 6.0-0 Be7 and castling soon, work on placing the queens knight to d5 if white allows it, and cementing it with ...c6, another idea is to get his pawns rolling on the k side ...h6 ...g5 eventually ...f4

6.e3 c5

I see. Thanks for replying. 

Cheers.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 409
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #25 - 11/13/15 at 10:43:10
Post Tools
Again,  I will not post all my work in this line for the reason I want to use this in my correspondence games and you never know who is reading this.   

In the case of 6.0-0 Be7 and castling soon, work on placing the queens knight to d5 if white allows it, and cementing it with ...c6, another idea is to get his pawns rolling on the k side ...h6 ...g5 eventually ...f4

6.e3 c5

Cheers.







  
I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 662
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #24 - 11/11/15 at 00:54:20
Post Tools
Hi.

BladezII wrote on 11/10/15 at 10:59:08:
I have done plenty of work in this line.  I think black is fine if he insists on the stonewall set up even if White plays Nh3. 
I won't post everything I have but I will post just one correspondence game which ended in draw, a very short game.
My conclusion is that black should definitely take advantage of white's Nh3 by taking in the center.


5...dxc4 looks like an interesting approach to the position. 

As a white player though, do you really want to exchange your now (uncharacteristically for a Dutch Stonewall) awesome light squared bishop? 

What does black play after for example 6.0-0 or 6.e3?

Have a nice day.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 409
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #23 - 11/10/15 at 10:59:08
Post Tools
I have done plenty of work in this line.  I think black is fine if he insists on the stonewall set up even if White plays Nh3.  
I won't post everything I have but I will post just one correspondence game which ended in draw, a very short game. 
My conclusion is that black should definitely take advantage of white's Nh3 by taking in the center. 

  
I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dean
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 75
Joined: 04/29/09
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #22 - 10/07/15 at 20:00:00
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 08/16/13 at 15:08:01:
Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.


One problem is that white may play:

1 d4 f5 2. c4 e6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 c6 5. Nd2!  and black can't really avoid a stonewall with Nh3.

5... d5  6. Nh3 Bd6 7. Qc2 0-0 8. 0-0 which looks pleasant for white.

5... d6 can be answered by 6. e4! or 6. Ngf3!?  and 5.. Be7 with the same moves.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Confused_by_Theory
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 662
Location: Europe
Joined: 05/13/15
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #21 - 08/07/15 at 23:42:45
Post Tools
Hello.

brabo wrote on 08/07/15 at 09:03:32:
Did you check below very recent game?

(Fressinet-Agdestein)

brabo wrote on 08/07/15 at 09:03:32:
Black was already lost very early in the game. Agdestein is a co-writer of a Dutch book in which he recommends above system and has many years of experience with the Dutch. Things aren't easy for black.


I like Fressinet's play and his choice of variation. 

Interestingly Magnus Carlsen commentated the event for Norwegian tv and among other things interviewed these players after this very game.

Have a nice day.





  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MartinC
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 2115
Joined: 07/24/06
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #20 - 08/07/15 at 10:16:06
Post Tools
Looks a little like an Ilyin–Genevsky where white has the odd extra tempo to me. Very comfortable looking white set up around move 9 at the least.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
brabo
God Member
*****
Offline


Welcome chessfriend

Posts: 1073
Joined: 02/02/07
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #19 - 08/07/15 at 09:03:32
Post Tools
saubhikr wrote on 08/07/15 at 04:57:51:


I fully agree to this view. with ..c6, black can go for classical variation with ..d6 & ..e5 later on when Nh3 may not look the best move to play.

Did you check below very recent game?

Black was already lost very early in the game. Agdestein is a co-writer of a Dutch book in which he recommends above system and has many years of experience with the Dutch. Things aren't easy for black.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
saubhikr
Senior Member
****
Offline


Chess is a cruel game
but I still love it

Posts: 332
Location: Milwaukee, WI, USA
Joined: 10/29/06
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #18 - 08/07/15 at 04:57:51
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 08/16/13 at 15:08:01:
Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.


I fully agree to this view. with ..c6, black can go for classical variation with ..d6 & ..e5 later on when Nh3 may not look the best move to play.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Sandman
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 134
Joined: 05/10/07
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #17 - 03/21/14 at 11:31:18
Post Tools
Thanks Tony. Is there a particular variation of French I should consider? Also thanks for the practicioners as it gives me some specific games and players to look at.
  
“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy.
That's how far the world is from where I am.
Just one bad day.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tony37
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 619
Joined: 10/16/10
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #16 - 03/20/14 at 18:26:06
Post Tools
Sandman wrote on 03/20/14 at 18:08:38:
Don't mean to hijack this thread however, being unsure as to proper etiquette, I'll ask my question here instead of creating a new post. What do dutch stonewall players play against e4?

often a French I would guess, to be able to play 1.d4 e6
just looking at some top level Stonewall players (Gleizerov, Moskalenko and Ulibin) and they all play the French
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sandman
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 134
Joined: 05/10/07
Gender: Male
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #15 - 03/20/14 at 18:08:38
Post Tools
Don't mean to hijack this thread however, being unsure as to proper etiquette, I'll ask my question here instead of creating a new post. What do dutch stonewall players play against e4?
  
“All it takes is one bad day to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy.
That's how far the world is from where I am.
Just one bad day.”
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ErictheRed
God Member
*****
Offline


USCF National Master

Posts: 2534
Location: USA
Joined: 10/02/05
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #14 - 03/08/14 at 12:11:03
Post Tools
Markovich gave a good summary of why Black traditionally plays this early ...c6 move order.   

However, as someone who has played this line with both colors, I think that Black's problems are vastly overestimated.  I think that he can just play the standard Stonewall stuff, then retreat his bishop from d6 when White's arrives on f4.  Then, the White bishop on f4 and knight on h3 are in each other's way.  As long as Black doesn't weaken his kingside on move 9 (which for some reason is the most common move in my database), he seems fine.  I mean this:

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
chandrashekharkoravi
Full Member
***
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 155
Joined: 08/13/13
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #13 - 03/08/14 at 09:54:10
Post Tools
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2346
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #12 - 03/08/14 at 07:02:12
Post Tools
chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 03/07/14 at 15:13:04:
Pcal wrote on 11/04/13 at 21:40:04:
Markovich wrote on 08/16/13 at 15:08:01:
Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.


I believe the Nh3 lead to an advantage for White against the Stonewall... 

I do agree with the above quote;   if white plays the Nh3 line,   play 4...c6  and ... d6 i.e. "the Classical."  Black looks to be  ok... However.. Johnson & Bern's tome on the Stonewall point out  some tricky waiting moves that white can play starting around the 7th  Example: 

1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 c6! 5.Nh3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nd2 
[7.Nf4 d6 8.Nd3 Nbd7 9.f4? e5! 10.fxe5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4µ; 
7.d5 Qc7 8.Nc3 e5 9.e4 d6 10.exf5 Bxf5 11.Ng5 Na6! (11...Nbd7?! White gets to guard the pawn with Bh3 then pushes b4 to throw out black knight at c5 white gets  a space advantage, while black forces are not harmonic.
12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Nc5 14.Bh3 Rad8 15.b4 Na6²) 12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Rad8÷; 
7.Qc2 Na6 8.a3 d6 9.Nd2 d5 personally i don't like this line... how does black keep Nf4 then Nd3 followed by Nf3 both covering e5; 
7.b3 d6 8.Bb2 Qc7 (8...a5 9.Nc3 Na6) 9.Nd2 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Qc2 (11.e4 Na6!? .after coming  Nc5 this looks equal) 11...h6 (11...Na6!?; 11...Ng4!?) 12.Qc3 Nbd7÷; 
7.Nc3 d6! 8.e4 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5=] 7...d6 8.b3 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5 " Playing the classical as long as I have... when I get pawns at f5 and e5 I know things are going my way... "

As far as the Dutch goes....  I play  both the Classical and Stonewall lines..  There is risk playing f5. Its a fickle animal.  When I win... I win big! But I loose more than I draw... It's just the nature of the Dutch.



Thanks for your feed back but i still fear there are lot of good lines for black this might be one of them


Comments? What does this mean?
Just chucking up bare moves helps no one really. 
Guide readers through. Refer to theory, to other posts.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge