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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ?? (Read 33049 times)
chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #11 - 03/07/14 at 15:13:04
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Pcal wrote on 11/04/13 at 21:40:04:
Markovich wrote on 08/16/13 at 15:08:01:
Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.


I believe the Nh3 lead to an advantage for White against the Stonewall... 

I do agree with the above quote;   if white plays the Nh3 line,   play 4...c6  and ... d6 i.e. "the Classical."  Black looks to be  ok... However.. Johnson & Bern's tome on the Stonewall point out  some tricky waiting moves that white can play starting around the 7th  Example: 

1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 c6! 5.Nh3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nd2 
[7.Nf4 d6 8.Nd3 Nbd7 9.f4? e5! 10.fxe5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4µ; 
7.d5 Qc7 8.Nc3 e5 9.e4 d6 10.exf5 Bxf5 11.Ng5 Na6! (11...Nbd7?! White gets to guard the pawn with Bh3 then pushes b4 to throw out black knight at c5 white gets  a space advantage, while black forces are not harmonic.
12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Nc5 14.Bh3 Rad8 15.b4 Na6²) 12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Rad8÷; 
7.Qc2 Na6 8.a3 d6 9.Nd2 d5 personally i don't like this line... how does black keep Nf4 then Nd3 followed by Nf3 both covering e5; 
7.b3 d6 8.Bb2 Qc7 (8...a5 9.Nc3 Na6) 9.Nd2 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Qc2 (11.e4 Na6!? .after coming  Nc5 this looks equal) 11...h6 (11...Na6!?; 11...Ng4!?) 12.Qc3 Nbd7÷; 
7.Nc3 d6! 8.e4 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5=] 7...d6 8.b3 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5 " Playing the classical as long as I have... when I get pawns at f5 and e5 I know things are going my way... "

As far as the Dutch goes....  I play  both the Classical and Stonewall lines..  There is risk playing f5. Its a fickle animal.  When I win... I win big! But I loose more than I draw... It's just the nature of the Dutch.



Thanks for your feed back but i still fear there are lot of good lines for black this might be one of them
  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #10 - 11/04/13 at 21:40:04
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Markovich wrote on 08/16/13 at 15:08:01:
Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.


I believe the Nh3 lead to an advantage for White against the Stonewall... 

I do agree with the above quote;   if white plays the Nh3 line,   play 4...c6  and ... d6 i.e. "the Classical."  Black looks to be  ok... However.. Johnson & Bern's tome on the Stonewall point out  some tricky waiting moves that white can play starting around the 7th  Example: 

1.d4 f5 2.g3 Nf6 3.Bg2 e6 4.c4 c6! 5.Nh3 Be7 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nd2 
[7.Nf4 d6 8.Nd3 Nbd7 9.f4? e5! 10.fxe5 dxe5 11.dxe5 Ng4µ; 
7.d5 Qc7 8.Nc3 e5 9.e4 d6 10.exf5 Bxf5 11.Ng5 Na6! (11...Nbd7?! White gets to guard the pawn with Bh3 then pushes b4 to throw out black knight at c5 white gets  a space advantage, while black forces are not harmonic.
12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Nc5 14.Bh3 Rad8 15.b4 Na6²) 12.Ne6 Bxe6 13.dxe6 Rad8÷; 
7.Qc2 Na6 8.a3 d6 9.Nd2 d5 personally i don't like this line... how does black keep Nf4 then Nd3 followed by Nf3 both covering e5; 
7.b3 d6 8.Bb2 Qc7 (8...a5 9.Nc3 Na6) 9.Nd2 e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.Qc2 (11.e4 Na6!? .after coming  Nc5 this looks equal) 11...h6 (11...Na6!?; 11...Ng4!?) 12.Qc3 Nbd7÷; 
7.Nc3 d6! 8.e4 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5=] 7...d6 8.b3 e5 9.dxe5 dxe5 " Playing the classical as long as I have... when I get pawns at f5 and e5 I know things are going my way... "

As far as the Dutch goes....  I play  both the Classical and Stonewall lines..  There is risk playing f5. Its a fickle animal.  When I win... I win big! But I loose more than I draw... It's just the nature of the Dutch.
  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #9 - 08/19/13 at 05:14:07
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Bibs wrote on 08/18/13 at 10:38:46:
chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/18/13 at 07:38:08:
we are seeking variation for white...What plans can we have against it


To help a new member (welcome! Smiley) the questions that you ask across the different threads, which tend toward the same idea (tell me what to do in line x) do tend to annoy people quite quickly. Lots of people are friendly, there is plenty of good will, and much help offered. 
But it is give and take. Bring something to the table. Offer ideas.



okies sir I will try to bring..
  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #8 - 08/18/13 at 10:38:46
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/18/13 at 07:38:08:
we are seeking variation for white...What plans can we have against it


To help a new member (welcome! Smiley) the questions that you ask across the different threads, which tend toward the same idea (tell me what to do in line x) do tend to annoy people quite quickly. Lots of people are friendly, there is plenty of good will, and much help offered. 
But it is give and take. Bring something to the table. Offer ideas.
  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #7 - 08/18/13 at 07:54:46
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Not 2.g3. I trust you to find better moves than that one. Perhaps you noticed I have actually offered a plan against the Stonewall in my previous post.
  
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chandrashekharkoravi
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #6 - 08/18/13 at 07:38:08
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we are seeking variation for white...What plans can we have against it
  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #5 - 08/17/13 at 21:06:28
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The move order of the OP is imprecise anyway because of 2...c5.
After 1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 f5 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3 I wouldn't advise the Stonewall either because of Bf4, Qc2 and  castling queenside.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #4 - 08/17/13 at 19:09:54
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chandrashekharkoravi wrote on 08/17/13 at 19:07:40:

white will also be better after 11.f4 instead of 11.b4  Tongue
  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #3 - 08/17/13 at 19:07:40
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #2 - 08/16/13 at 18:51:10
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That is indeed one of the rules of thumb on the Stonewall in the books - but quite strong players break it frequently, so it's hard to say how valid it really is nowadays in the days of the 'concrete approach'.

Anyway, according to high level practice it seems Black is okay vs 8.Nd2.

  
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Re: Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
Reply #1 - 08/16/13 at 15:08:01
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Now we see what comes from letting sloughter post this way.  But I will hand out some free chess advice nevertheless.  As a general rule, having played ...f5, Black should not commit himself to ...d5 until White's KN has landed on f3.  If it goes instead to h3, Black should play ...d6.  Therefore, 4...c6 was a better move than 4...d5.
  
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Can white get advantage of dutch stonewall ??
08/14/13 at 16:05:20
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