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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna (Read 29987 times)
tracke
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #26 - 07/09/18 at 07:02:38
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As I already stated in posts #19 and #23 :

It‘s about the position after 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 or, more often used in the book, 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4.

The Pros and Cons of 4... dxc4 / 4... Bb4 and 5th move alternatives are not discussed.
In case of 4 Nf3 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 only 6 Bg5 is covered.

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #25 - 07/09/18 at 00:15:20
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Okay, but is the starting position of the book after 4...dc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5, or after 4...dc4 (i.e. are 6 Bxc4; 5 e3; 5 Qa4+, etc. covered?). Sorry if you answered this already and I misunderstood.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #24 - 07/08/18 at 20:04:37
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Again when you look at the book the move is specifically 4...dxc4. At least in the couple of chapters I've looked through and the index of variations.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #23 - 07/07/18 at 18:28:40
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


That‘s chapter 6 dealing with (4 Nf3 dxc4 5 Bg5 Bb4 6 e4 c5) 7.Bc4 
and all deviations not leading to chapters 1-5 .

(A typo/omission but not my mistake but one of Everyman or Niggemann)

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« Last Edit: 07/07/18 at 20:02:40 by tracke »  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #22 - 07/07/18 at 18:27:12
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IsaVulpes wrote on 07/07/18 at 11:58:08:
tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!


I thought so too at first, but in fact I don't think it's referring to "6.Bxc4" - it's Chapter #6 and talks about deviations after 7. Bxc4 (I assume).
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #21 - 07/07/18 at 13:29:47
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Almost every game in the index of variations has 4...dxc4. I haven't seen any discussion of 5.. dxc4 in the book so far. I haven't got that far Isa, I'll have a look later...yardwork.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #20 - 07/07/18 at 11:58:08
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tracke wrote on 07/07/18 at 10:22:22:
Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 .

What is this chapter about, then?
tracke wrote on 06/23/18 at 14:47:29:
163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

Given its name and rather sizeable length (of 40 pages!), I figured they must be talking about the gambit line?!
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #19 - 07/07/18 at 10:22:22
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Yes, mn, only about 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4 !!

Of course many of the featured games have other move orders,
very often 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bg5 but also things like 
3 Nf3 Nf6 4 Bg5 dxc4 5 e4 Bb4+ 6 Nc3 ...
But these move orders are not discussed and alternatives not mentioned. 
The commentary always starts (at the earliest) in positions that could 
have arisen from 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dxc4!

Nothing about 4 ... dxc4 5 e4 Bb4 6 Bxc4 . 
To build a black repertoire on 4 ... dxc4 you have to add other sources!

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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #18 - 07/07/18 at 09:53:06
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Generally the idea seems to be 4..dc4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #17 - 07/07/18 at 07:17:30
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So, to clarify, the book starts after 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 Nf3 Bb4 5 Bg5 dc4 and not 4...dc4, yes?
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #16 - 07/07/18 at 01:29:23
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The book does cover e3 and some other tries instead of e4.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #15 - 06/23/18 at 14:47:29
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003 About the Authors

005 Introduction

016 Introduction to the Main Line: 7 Bxc4 cxd4 8 Nxd4 Bxc3+ 9 bxc3 Qa5

020 1 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 11 Bxf6 Qxc3+ 12 Kf1 gxf6 13 h4 a6 14 Rh3 Qa5

045 2 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Nbd7 - Deviations

072 3 The Main Line: 10 Bb5+ Bd7

110 4 The Main Line: 10 Bxf6

137 5 The Main Line: 10 Nb5

163 6 Bxc4 - Deviations

202 7 7 e5 cxd4 8 Qa4+ Nc6 9 0-0-0

229 8 6...c5 - Deviations

259 9 Black plays 6...h6

289 10 6 e4 - Deviations

303 11 White avoids 6 e4

328 Index of Variations

335 Index of Complete Games 


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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #14 - 03/23/18 at 04:33:52
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IsaVulpes wrote on 03/23/18 at 01:03:57:
an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me. 

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90! 
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.


To be fair, Pert only had to cover his ...Qa5 recommendation, and got to ignore the main body of theory with ...Bxc3+ etc.

  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #13 - 03/23/18 at 01:03:57
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an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 03/20/18 at 01:46:53:
I agree with you that I have not seen "complete" coverage of 4...dxc4 anywhere.

Not a book, but Part 2 of Gustafsson's "Black Repertoire vs 1.d4" Series on chess24 covers the Vienna.
However, he has also stated that it is definitely "the weak spot" of the repertoire (mostly because of the line I mentioned) and that he would now probably recommend the Ragozin (with the Vienna transposition after Bg5) instead, if he could start from scratch.

Of course this isn't a forced loss, and eg Caruana was unafraid to enter the Vienna via the classic moveorder against Aronian in the Candidates -with Levon not testing the prep against Bc4:, but just going for Bg5- but that even moreso would make some coverage of it very interesting to me. 

And again, I am not sure how to fill 400 pages with the position after 4. ..Bb4 5.Bg5 6.dc4: alone - Pert covers this in 90! 
.. in fact, with the entire Ragozin on top + the funny 3.Nc3 Bb4 line + the Catalan, his book clocks in at 430 pages total, without leaving a feeling of having cut all too many corners.
  
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Re: Panczyk/Ilczuk on QGD Vienna
Reply #12 - 03/22/18 at 01:00:11
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Me saying 5.e3 is inaccurate did not stop Grischuk from playing this QGA line (by transposition) against Kramnik.
  
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