Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Symmetrical "Grunfeld" (Read 10785 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
God Member
*****
Offline


I used to be not bad.

Posts: 1833
Location: Columbus, OH (USA)
Joined: 01/02/15
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #22 - 09/30/20 at 18:12:49
Post Tools
Like lots of players, I let my moves do the hating. Spiteful words, throwing water, etc. can easily backfire. Difficult people wind up having problems in chessland with opponents doing extra preparation (including collusive preparation), playing to bare kings, publishing gleeful annotations, etc. But yes, as a last resort the martial arts are valuable for "correcting" people who don't understand how to keep it civil, in all walks of life.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1849
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #21 - 09/30/20 at 13:11:47
Post Tools
Stigma wrote on 09/30/20 at 04:03:05:
Though of course rough tackles like that would be even less accepted in a chess match.  Smiley

Back when I was a teenager and just starting out with tournament chess, a guy told me he hated me, threatened to throw pieces at me, and then tossed a bottle of water on me. This was before my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu days - today I'd "gently" place someone like that on the floor and put him to sleep. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3277
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #20 - 09/30/20 at 04:03:05
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/29/20 at 16:48:33:

The Dutch playing style is always praised for it's beautiful, technical play. What the praisers almost always forget is that two of the most successful teams had some genuine shithouses, especially Johan Neeskens and Jan Wouters.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfuD282WiWM

You know, until I finally looked at the video I just assumed you were talking about chess and wondered,"who are these aggressive or sleezy Dutch chess players I have never heard of? Must be some legendary team players from the Dutch league."

Though of course rough tackles like that would be even less accepted in a chess match.  Smiley
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #19 - 09/29/20 at 16:48:33
Post Tools
Bibs wrote on 09/29/20 at 12:38:55:
I just want to say that I love the word 'hooliganry' there! It's now one of my fave words, alongside 'shithousery'. For people outside the UK: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/13-of-footballs-biggest-shithouses-ra...
"Sergio Ramos isn’t a shithouse, he’s a shithotel."

The Dutch playing style is always praised for it's beautiful, technical play. What the praisers almost always forget is that two of the most successful teams had some genuine shithouses, especially Johan Neeskens and Jan Wouters.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfuD282WiWM
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jupp53
God Member
*****
Offline


be

Posts: 988
Location: Frankfurt/Main
Joined: 01/04/09
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #18 - 09/29/20 at 14:19:38
Post Tools
Thanks for the hint to the football article. Out of topic but a great lesson in English.  Cheesy
  

Medical textbooks say I should be dead since April 2002.
Dum spiro spero. Smiley
Narcissm is the humans primary disease.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bibs
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 2346
Joined: 10/24/06
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #17 - 09/29/20 at 12:38:55
Post Tools
I just want to say that I love the word 'hooliganry' there! It's now one of my fave words, alongside 'shithousery'. For people outside the UK: https://www.planetfootball.com/quick-reads/13-of-footballs-biggest-shithouses-ra...
"Sergio Ramos isn’t a shithouse, he’s a shithotel." 

But one digresses.

The Hausrath book is good on the double fianchetto KID lines, but oddly seems to miss the Grunfeld stuff. I reviewed the book, but will need to check if I can post reviews.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1849
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #16 - 09/29/20 at 12:19:38
Post Tools
pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
I didnt like neither the lines where Black plays quickly d5+c5 where you end up in a sort of reversed Benko.

I have enjoyed and scored quite well in Reversed Grunfelds instead, if you haven't taken a look yet.

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
Nor the lines when after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 d6 5.d4 and Black can interfere with a quick c5, even followed by Qa5+ and you have to put something on d2 now.

Yes, this is the problem, agreed.

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
(f.e. I like some ideas of Svane and Meier in the KID-lines)

I'll check out Svane, thanks!

pirc kid wrote on 09/29/20 at 06:52:42:
I decided to go for the symmetrical Grunfeld anyway. It is the most complicated and demanding part in Sieleckis repertoire in my opinion and a lot of work, but that exactly is its strength, especially the Qc1-lines of the c5-mainline more and more feels like my private territory and -at least in my recent online games- even strong titled players mess this up a lot.

Yeah I think at some point I'll have to just settle on going 6.c4, picking a seventh move, and then force myself to love it. 

MNb wrote on 09/29/20 at 08:05:53:
You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

I have never outright rejected hooliganry OR tomfoolery.  Grin
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #15 - 09/29/20 at 08:06:33
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern.

You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 1.Nf3 g6 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting),

How about 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 O-O 5.Bg2 d6 6.c4 c5 (e5) 7.O-O Nc6 8.d4 ?
Or 6.d4 (iso 6.c4) c5 7.c4 (White has played Bb2 iso O-O)?
The question of course becomes what is the mildest downside; that's up to you anyhow.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10780
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #14 - 09/29/20 at 08:05:53
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:
but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern.

You also could allow yourself some hooliganry and play 2.h4; some pretty strong players have tried it.

[quote author=497273644F721D0 link=1601297423/8#8 date=1601305292]There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting), 
Indeed this issue is unavoidable after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
pirc kid
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 9
Joined: 02/28/16
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #13 - 09/29/20 at 06:52:42
Post Tools
I also play 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 and I thought I can bypass the symmetrical Grunfeld with 3.b3.

I didnt like neither the lines where Black plays quickly d5+c5 where you end up in a sort of reversed Benko.

Nor the lines when after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 d6 5.d4 and Black can interfere with a quick c5, even followed by Qa5+ and you have to put something on d2 now.

The other repertoire issue is obviously after 1.Nf3 g6 

I think a lot of Sieleckis repertoire is even better for Nf3/g3 players, because you are not only extremely flexible, you just can avoid his weakest parts (especially the d5/Bf5 chapters where Sielecki just misses Blacks best setup) and go for Retis instead. And probalby some minor adjustments in other lines (f.e. I like some ideas of Svane and Meier in the KID-lines)

I decided to go for the symmetrical Grunfeld anyway. It is the most complicated and demanding part in Sieleckis repertoire in my opinion and a lot of work, but that exactly is its strength, especially the Qc1-lines of the c5-mainline more and more feels like my private territory and -at least in my recent online games- even strong titled players mess this up a lot.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1849
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #12 - 09/28/20 at 19:14:02
Post Tools
I'll have to look into that one - I think I might have and thought that 3...d4! was annoying. Gotta check my notes on that one!  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BeeCaves
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 66
Joined: 03/09/18
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #11 - 09/28/20 at 17:38:12
Post Tools
For 1 Nf3 d5 2 g3 g6 ... You could play 3 c4 here ... 

3... dxc4 4 Na3
3... d4 4 b4
3... c6 4 Qa4!?




  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 638
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #10 - 09/28/20 at 15:21:21
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:

Hausrath is another guy I follow. Alexander Rakhmanov also tends to be someone not a lot of people talk about, but he reaches similar positions.

Yes, Hausrath is also a player I follow since the release of his excellent book. I don't know Rakhmanov, thanks for the tip!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TD
God Member
*****
Offline


Feyenoord forever!

Posts: 638
Location: Rotterdam, NLD
Joined: 02/12/11
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #9 - 09/28/20 at 15:10:01
Post Tools
TonyRo wrote on 09/28/20 at 15:01:32:

What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7?

Yes, I also found that a difficult position to play against.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TonyRo
God Member
*****
Offline


I'm gonna crack your skull!

Posts: 1849
Location: Cleveland, OH
Joined: 11/26/07
Gender: Male
Re: Symmetrical "Grunfeld"
Reply #8 - 09/28/20 at 15:01:32
Post Tools
MNb wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:23:43:
Have you thought of the transposition 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.g3 g6 3.b3 Bg7 4.Bb2 ?

Yes, and this is actually what I was doing for a while. There is a mild downside that in some lines of the b3 KID you are committed to Bb2 too soon, e.g. 5...d6 6.b3 c5 7.c4! is not possible now, you'd transpose to 7.Bb2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 when if I remembering the position correctly, 8...d5! is possible. Not a big deal at all to me (I think my notes I think I thought that 9.c4!? dxc4 10.Na3 was at least interesting), but there is worse. What do you play after 1.Nf3 d5 2.g3 g6 3.Bg2 Bg7, or 1.Nf3 g6 2.g3 Bg7? I would play d4 in both cases, but then you don't get that Anglo-Grunfeld option. I could go 2.e4 against the Modern if I could solve the former issue, but the repertoire would certainly be less compact than reaching the same position in all of these cases. I would definitely go the Anglo-Slav c4+d3 route if it was possible to avoid these transpo-tricks, I like that line stylistically anyway.

CanadianClub wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:32:03:
You have direct line with some strong german GM that plays some of this lines also, haven't you? Wink Or not anymore?

Georg was my coach for maybe two years or so I think - he is a great guy and every once in a while we catch up. I took a break from serious chess for a while, though I feel that bug creeping in again...perhaps it's time to start working with him again. Or at least once it's possible to play chess in person again and compete! 

TD wrote on 09/28/20 at 14:34:11:
Georg Meier and Oleg Romanishin are also interesting players to follow.

Romanishin is a good call. Hausrath is another guy I follow. Alexander Rakhmanov also tends to be someone not a lot of people talk about, but he reaches similar positions. Always on the lookout for more of these guys that play these slower and tricky 1.Nf3 and 2.g3 positions. I've always wanted to eventually release a book on my White repertoire called "ZOOM 002", mostly because I think it would be funny and a nice tribute to a book I like quite a bit!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo