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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) An idea for the c3 modern from Leela (Read 10003 times)
RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #35 - 01/27/23 at 00:24:04
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Yes, b5 in these lines does seem difficult to justify. 
I was just exploring some of the a4 anti-Berlins, due to the Caruana-Carlsen game in Tata Steel. Moving the b-pawn liberates the rook pretty nicely. This is one of the lines in this c3 modern I've been laboring over with a similar motif. Black could justify the pawns by looking for activity on the b-file+Ba6, most likely liquifying.

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Edit: Updated the study. I'm done with the 8.a4 lines, there is still this 8.Bb5 where I'm not sure about the best approach. Na3 is also still lacking lines but will look to add them asap. Maybe I'll also bother to add more references and spellcheck it.
« Last Edit: 01/27/23 at 06:18:44 by RosemarysBaby »  
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Confused_by_Theory
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #34 - 01/26/23 at 23:04:23
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Hi.

If white does not play Nc3 in the modern and goes for lines with c3 instead I'd argue the a6-b5 plan is a bit weak in general. When I was a younger  player, far less strategically minded, I would still play like this though Smiley

Compared to the Ruy one of the main differences would be that d3 is quite a good square for a bishop. It has got there quickly as well. A nice thing about this whole system is that White, in general, is quite quick out of the starting blocks and can mostly punish weird play by black despite Bd3+c3 not really looking like active moves at all.

Another major one would be that having pre-positioned pawns on c3+d4 gives a certain flexibility for white. He can, if black first plays e5, go d4xe5 the moment b5 gets played. In case of d6xe5 by black a semi-open position arises. One with having played b5 rarely is such an asset and further pawn play tends to be hard without much preparation. The positions where having played b7-b7 is a strategic plus for black are more often ones where white has already bypassed (after e7-e5) with d4-d5 or ones with a knight still on c3. Furthermore if b7-b5 gets played and white replies a2-a4 it is not always black can bypass the whole situation with b5-b4, due to white having a pawn ready to snap with cxb4. In the Ruy Lopez this pawn is often back on c2.

Have a nice day.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #33 - 01/25/23 at 21:40:54
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I'd agree with the ECO on that.
Thinking of the differences between a Pirc/modern and the Ruy, a6->b5 is quite useful in the c6 operation to undermine a pawn on d5. Maybe there is an illustrative, existing term for this type of knight-pawn-total-undermining-operation?

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This is a rare instance of it being deployed on the kingside. Apparently, that is a critical Nimzovitch defense position... well for engines anyway, I'd stick to 2.Nf3.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIFZwDLdeaA
The position comes up around the 11:50 mark,
  
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kylemeister
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #32 - 01/23/23 at 18:00:20
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"1.d4 g6 2.e4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.c3 Nf6 5.Bd3 Nbd7 6.O-O O-O

I think existing practice, as well as the fact that d5 can be instantly met with c6 and the fact that black can build towards an open fianchetto on the queenside, preparing d5, make a good case for this line.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=2009075"

I notice that in ECO (where it appears via "Kavalek's" 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nd2) this is basically considered equal.  To be a bit more specific,  9...a5 (as in your linked game) is gives as leading to equality, while 9...a6 is said to lead to unclarity (unclearness?).
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #31 - 01/23/23 at 16:01:23
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kylemeister wrote on 01/22/23 at 22:10:23:
The line 1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bb5 ("White is trying to get into a Ruy Lopez") reminded me of a game Kavalek-Donner from the IBM tournament in Amsterdam 50 years ago. Kavalek wrote that the opening caused confusion among the Dutch chess journalists, some of whom considered it a Ruy Lopez while others classified it as a Pirc.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1615105

Interesting how people have these intersecting definitions. I'm not that into semantics, at the end of the day what is there is there, call it whatever serves the purpose.

In the line I looked at Bd7 probably would transpose to the fianchetto Ruy. I think the a6 move makes a better case, seeing that the modern isn't deployed to get into e4-e5 theory, and Bxc6 looks justifiable for black with some Rossolimo-type plans.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1886521
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #30 - 01/22/23 at 22:10:23
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The line 1. d4 g6 2. e4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bb5 ("White is trying to get into a Ruy Lopez") reminded me of a game Kavalek-Donner from the IBM tournament in Amsterdam 50 years ago. Kavalek wrote that the opening caused confusion among the Dutch chess journalists, some of whom considered it a Ruy Lopez while others classified it as a Pirc.

https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1615105
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #29 - 01/22/23 at 19:42:08
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I decided to try conceptualizing a little bit since some of the ideas aren't very self-explanatory and found the PGN alone to be a bit too cryptic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iJQlEH3yf8M_8Uz4EAwXdrFcxxwLTiWR/view?usp=share...

It's just a passion project, it's still not quite "done" and by no means fine literature. I ended up a bit unsure of what done means here since I originally had no plans of making a study.

I thought I'd want to share it though, seeing that the ideas I've posted here are a bit here and there and green. Didn't add the lines after 8.Na3 yet, since there are many good approaches, and I'm pondering on which makes the most conceptual sense.


  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #28 - 01/19/23 at 21:02:56
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Dink Heckler wrote on 01/19/23 at 20:13:55:
>if the diagram frightens black then please stay away from the Spanish Breyer, the Orthodox QGD, etc.

Well, the Breyer and Orthodox QGD are orders of magnitude more popular than whatever this is, so this sort of argument by association doesn't seem very compelling  Smiley


Agreed, this line hasn't gone through a similar level of play or analysis. The modern is mainly plaid against unprepared opponents, and the white players who're booked will most likely play Be3 or f4. Besides the lines that bear resemblance to this like the Breyer, the fianchetto lines and Steinitz have lost popularity they are after all the Spanish torture.
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #27 - 01/19/23 at 20:13:55
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>if the diagram frightens black then please stay away from the Spanish Breyer, the Orthodox QGD, etc.

Well, the Breyer and Orthodox QGD are orders of magnitude more popular than whatever this is, so this sort of argument by association doesn't seem very compelling  Smiley
  

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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #26 - 01/19/23 at 18:01:05
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I was going to say I didn't understand _any_ of Balashov's moves, and I'm willing to bet he didn't much like them either.

The position after 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5 6. h3 Nf6 7.O-O O-O 8.Re1 (by whatever move order) is completely normal, somewhere between = and +=.
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Both 8...Re8 and 8...h6 are played regularly and recently by strong players, and score about the same. A bunch of other moves are also played somewhat less regularly by somewhat less strong players. It's just a chess game, if the diagram frightens black then please stay away from the Spanish Breyer, the Orthodox QGD, etc.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #25 - 01/19/23 at 17:49:29
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With high respect to Balashov, black seemed lucky to get away in that game. I think the positional assessment of these old-Benoni structures continues to go down due to the long-term issues with the dark-squared bishop, space, and d6. Black can't combat white on the queenside, whereas the battle on the kingside is much more even.
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #24 - 01/19/23 at 17:05:27
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RosemarysBaby wrote on 01/19/23 at 15:28:57:

About:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5 6. h3 Nf6 7.O-O O-O
In the main play 8.Re1 Re8 9.d5 Ne7 10.c4 with the Rook on e8 the f5 plan lacks power. Without Re8 black has little hope for timing d5 effectively. 
White play will most likely follow with slow improvement:
1. Bc2 opening the queen to avoid Be3 being met with d5
2. Be3 developing, keeping options open for the b1 knight
3. Nbd2/Na3 now Re8 doesn't need to be met with d5, I see no way for black to have kept their d5 break alive. The one exception I can think of is black playing b6->Bb7, which would again lead to d5->c4->Nc3 and a speculative KID. 
The game goes on...

I see that ECO has 8...Re8 9. d5 Ne7 10. c4 as leading to an edge for White.  (Back in the late 20th century, Nunn had it as leading to equality.) It "prefers" 8...h6 for Black. In the case of 9. Bc2 it gives 9...Nh5 10. Be3 b6 11. Nbd2 Bb7 12. a3 Qe7 13. Nf1 Nb8 = (Alexei Fedorov-Y. Balashov, Russia 2000).

(Side note:  I had an inkling that Yuri Balashov was deceased, but evidently he is still with us. I think I may have first heard of him when he played at Lone Pine in the '70s.)
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #23 - 01/19/23 at 15:28:57
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Yesterday I read this Pterodactyl book.
It got me thinking about this straight-to-the-point move order:

1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 c5
It provides more direct pressure on d4 than the other ways to reach the Alapin.
5.c3 cxd4 6.cxd4 Bg4 7.Nbd2 Nc6 8.h3 Bd7 9.Nb3 a5
White is forced into concessions of allowing a4 or letting go of d4!
Of course, these are critical too:
5.d5 Nf6 
The early Bd3 removes the irritating Bc4 and Bb5+ options that usually hinder e6. Black ofc still has more to prove. 
5.dxc5 Qa5+ 4.c3 Qxc5
With a pretty reasonable-looking position.

Now funnily enough the line pointed out by CbT:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3
Might indeed deserve the "most dreaded of Anti-lines" title. As it stops Bg4 and thus kills the direct play for d4.
And either black goes back to the normal Alapin lines or into this:
4...Nf6 5.Bd3 e5 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Nxe5 Nxe4 8.Nxg6 hxg6 9.Bxe4 Qxd1 10.Kxd1
A line I had originally written with faulty notation Embarrassed

About:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5 6. h3 Nf6 7.O-O O-O
In the main play 8.Re1 Re8 9.d5 Ne7 10.c4 with the Rook on e8 the f5 plan lacks power. Without Re8 black has little hope for timing d5 effectively. 
White play will most likely follow with slow improvement:
1. Bc2 opening the queen to avoid Be3 being met with d5
2. Be3 developing, keeping options open for the b1 knight
3. Nbd2/Na3 now Re8 doesn't need to be met with d5, I see no way for black to have kept their d5 break alive. The one exception I can think of is black playing b6->Bb7, which would again lead to d5->c4->Nc3 and a speculative KID. 
The game goes on...

In the previous post, I forgot to mention:
8.Be3
This move, like Re1, justifies the g5->g4 scheme.
I'm still working on the PGN about the h6 move, but I think I've already clogged this thread enough so won't post more specifics until it's done. I will say the a4 and Na3 lines do seem the most positionally difficult.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #22 - 12/30/22 at 23:26:45
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I did an unhealthy amount of evaluation-gazing on lines after
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5 6. h3 Nf6 7.O-O h6

8.Bc2
Is in my opinion the least compromising move.
Black now faces a concrete problem: castling will not prove anything as white hasn't shown their hand with the b1-knight, f1-rook, or the queenside. 
8...g5
9.Nh2 d5 10.dxe5 Nxe4 11.f4 gxf4 12.Bxf4 Bxe5 13.Bxe5 Nxe5 14.Nd2 Be6 15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Bxe4 Qxd1
There are a bit too many ins and outs here to fit in one post... that being said black survives.
10.exd5 Nxd5 11.dxe5 Be6
And black does relatively well playing for Qd7->O-O-O
9.dxe5 dxe5 10.Qxd8 Kxd8
Evaluates positively for white, but the eval is pretty shallow due to white having like 10 moves. I can't really catch a critical push to stop black from slowly equalizing.

Might share a pgn later, but here are some practical takeaways from the other moves:

8.Na3 O-O
The knight is now misplaced in the Kings Indian structures warranting black to try for Re8->d5, without quite as much concern.

8.Nbd2
The main downside is the concealing of d4, black has a variety of ideas moving the knight unleashing the bishop, either immediately or later.

8.a4 a5
And the idea of using b4 looks to hold things together. Black should wait for a knight move before exd4 to avoid Nc3. If white stalls on moving the horse, things get complicated.
After exd4->Nb4 direct play with b6->Bb7/Ba6, Re8 etc. follows.

8.Re1
Leelas' g4 plan works even on deeper analysis.

In conclusion, h6 can turn out to be quite a helpful waiting move. There is however quite a bit of work to do to parsing the engine scripture to some understandable motifs.
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #21 - 12/30/22 at 19:24:52
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Ok, looking at the idea of Nge7 I immediately notice that the "dreaded" 
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.h3
does cause an issue. and black would probably have to resort to: 
4...Nf6 5.Bd3 e5 6.dxe5 dxe5
Which looks playable. However, I'm Not terribly fond of:
7.Nxg6 hxg6 8.Bxe4 Qxd1 9.Kxd1
Where the compensation reeks of the e5 classical or Bh6 Pirc. White has quite a few simple tries to consolidate and black has to do all the proving. 
And what about white not taking on e5 with the knight... or playing 6.c3. So I firmly agree with you that making the Nc6 stuff work would be the compact option.

In order to not throw the Leela idea in the garbage quite yet, maybe h6 could be thought of more as a waiting move than as a commitment to g5. For example:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bd3 Nc6 5.c3 e5 6. h3 Nf6 7.O-O h6 8.a4 a5
And black could try to prove that the b4 square allows plans such as dxe5->Nb4 followed by b6 or something
8.Nbd2
And black might get away with g5 again, due to the clumsy knight maneuvers.
[EDIT: g5 is not very viable here, the Fish hits it with a simple dxe5 dxe5 Bb5, where the knight conveniently blocks out Qxd1. So black needs another argument against Nbd2]

Then maybe cook up something against
8.Na3

 

  
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