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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) An idea for the c3 modern from Leela (Read 9996 times)
Confused_by_Theory
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #5 - 12/25/22 at 05:07:13
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Hi.

RosemarysBaby wrote on 12/19/22 at 09:37:53:
Hmh, I must admit that my knowledge of the line is surface level and mainly pointed it out due to (as you said) its reputation as the main idea.
Previous to this I'd play Nbd7 g6 against c3 like I was going on about in the first post.

So at the risk of going a bit off-topic what's the current consensus with
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Bd3 e5 4. c3
?

I just briefly checked with SF15 and it gives no clear answer.

Correspondence practice was a bit less comprehensive than I imagined. Anyway. A lot of people go:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 d5
It is recommended by both Marin and Kornev for example; which would be two recent Pirc sources. It seems an open question to me whether black truly equalises here, that being said he should really not face to many problems in a practical game with decent play. It is perhaps good to know that there seems to be a preference for the move
5.dxe5 Nxe4 6.Nf3 Nc6

On a pretty long sidenote black has a choice of if he wants to go d5 immediately or prepare with:
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 Nbd7
White looks like he has two tries.

5.f4!? and it's not so obvious how black resolves the central tension. If he goes:
5...exd4 6.cxd4 c5 7.d5 (7.Nf3!? might be a little bit annoying as well but does not look killer)
It's more of a Benoni where black normally would like to be able to play Bg4 but can't because of the knight on d7.
7...c4!? 8.Bc2 g6 9.Nc3 Bg7 10.Nf3 O-O
Seems reasonable for black though, so it may not be such a problem.

5...c5 6.dxe5 dxe5 7.Na3 a6 8.Nf3 b5 9.fxe5 Ng4 10.Bf4 c4 11.Bc2 Qc7 12.Qd2 Ngxe5 13.Nxe5 Nxe5 14.Nxc4 bxc4 15.Qd5 Nf3+ 16.Ke2 Qxf4 17.Qxa8 Nd4+ 18.cxd4 Qg4+
Is a weird line which I'd have to call unclear.

5...Be7 has been most common in very limited correspondence practice. It gives black a playable game, but white has some latent pressure on the centre.

or...

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 Nbd7 5.Nf3 d5
5...c6 makes some sense if black wants a slower game. Black would then not play g6 at all and instead put his bishop on e7. If he wants this both 4...Be7 and 4...a5 make some sense as well. It's harder to get in the modern move order though.
6.Qe2!?
It's not entirely clear how black resolves the central tension favourably. Many ways exist but most end up in some position where white keeps the extra pawn. Black can still get some Berlin like two bishops advantage, although in the Berlin he would have one more pawn. This difference makes the positions a lot harder to equalise for black.
6.dxe5 dxe4 7.exf6 exf3 8.fxg7 Bxg7 9.gxf3 Ne5 10.Bb5+ Ke7 11.Qxd8+ Rxd8 12.Be2 Nd3+ 13.Bxd3 Rxd3 14.Be3 Should be OK compensation for black
6...dxe4
Unless black wants to try something creative I don't think anything is avoided by:
6...Qe7 
due to...
7.dxe5 dxe4 8.Bxe4 Nxe4 9.Qxe4
It doesn't seem worth it.

7.Bxe4 Qe7 8.dxe5 Nxe4
8...Nxe5 9.Nxe5 Nxe4 10.Qxe4 f6 11.Bf4 fxe5 looks disgusting, though did hold for black in a low level correspondence game.
9.Qxe4
Here there are a couple of continuations. One being:
9...Nc5 10.Qd4 Qe6!? 11.O-O Qg6 12.Bg5!? Ne6 13.Qh4 b6 14.Nbd2 Nxg5!? 15.Qxg5 Qxg5 16.Nxg5 Be7 17.Ngf3 Bb7 18.Nd4 O-O-O 19.f4
I don't think black should lose this but white should have decent chances to press.

4...Nc6 looks early to play and 4...g6 seems mostly a way to reach 4...Nbd7 5.Nf3 g6 without allowing 4...Nbd7 5.f4.

Have a nice day.
  
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RosemarysBaby
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #4 - 12/19/22 at 09:37:53
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fjd wrote on 12/19/22 at 09:12:04:
I'm not sure 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 d5 is as comfortable for Black as its reputation (not to mention that White is probably going to be happier in this structure in general).


Hmh, I must admit that my knowledge of the line is surface level and mainly pointed it out due to (as you said) its reputation as the main idea.
Previous to this I'd play Nbd7 g6 against c3 like I was going on about in the first post.

So at the risk of going a bit off-topic what's the current consensus with
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Bd3 e5 4. c3
?

I just briefly checked with SF15 and it gives no clear answer.
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #3 - 12/19/22 at 09:12:04
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I'm not sure 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Bd3 e5 4.c3 d5 is as comfortable for Black as its reputation (not to mention that White is probably going to be happier in this structure in general).
  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #2 - 12/19/22 at 08:19:34
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Confused_by_Theory wrote on 12/18/22 at 19:43:30:
Hi.

Normally in slow Pirc positions the easiest thing is to play very principled. Light pieces out to safe squares, castling and central push (e5 most often).  Pushing g5-g4 is a different kind of principled.



There is a slight move-order thing that makes this setup specifically more difficult in the Modern.

In the Pirc, black could be super principled and play for the center from the start
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Bd3 e5 4. Nf3 exd4 5. Nxd4
1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Bd3 e5 4. c3 d5


You could also try to prioritize e5 in the modern, but it's not quite as punchy
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bd3 e5 5. dxe5 dxe5
With a classical Pirc-type position, but white could benefit from the flexibility/timing of not having plaid Nc3. Edit: also Bd3 enables Qe2, whereas in the classical the white Queen probably has no better option than to trade.


  
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Re: An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
Reply #1 - 12/18/22 at 19:43:30
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Hi.

Despite probably not being the most popular I reckon people will have tried various c3 setups in correspondence. I could go through that a bit tomorrow.

Normally in slow Pirc positions the easiest thing is to play very principled. Light pieces out to safe squares, castling and central push (e5 most often).  Pushing g5-g4 is a different kind of principled.

Have a nice day.
  
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An idea for the c3 modern from Leela
12/15/22 at 11:21:31
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They've been playing a bunch of moderns in the TCEC lately and this one caught my eye. Maybe interesting if you care about the Nf3/Bd3/c3 modern setups.



Most people seem to play this setup with the knight on c6 like Leela, but I always found it quite annoying.
This seems to be the main position:
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bd3 Nf6 5. O-O O-O 6. Re1 Nc6 7. c3 e5 8. h3
I know there are ideas like Re8->d5 Nh5->Nf4 and Nd7->f5, but none of them seem very reliable. The position just feels like bad a Ruy Lopez where white will either slowly outmaneuver me or I'll have to hope they get inattentive.

Nbd7 has worked better with me, since playing b6, a5, Bb7/Ba6, + the ability to respond to d5 with c6 and the potential for exd4->c5 bring some life to the black position. Then again I've had a few games that start something like: 
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bd3 Nf6 5. O-O O-O 6. Re1
The idea is that white delays c3. Then Nbd7 can be met with c4, Nc3 or e5.

And now there is this idea by Leela where it disrespectfully delays castling and hits the kingside with a blunt object.

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I've just gotten to studying it, but here's a couple of takeaways:
White would probably avoid h3, if they knew of the plan.
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bd3 Nc6 5. c3 e5
Maybe keeping the bishop open to d4 would be enough to make white play h3 in the fear of Bg4 collapsing their center.
6. dxe5 Nxe5 7. Nxe5 dxe5
seems fine to me
6. O-O exd4 7. cxd4 Bg4
And maybe white has an edge, but there is good counterplay on the dark squares.

Then again 
1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nf3 d6 4. Bd3 Nf6 5. O-O Nc6 6. c3 e5 7.Re1 Bg4 8. d5 Ne7   
May not be bad either, from what I understand Bg4 can sometimes be justified in a Kings Indian structure after all white did play the slow c3 + with the bishop on d3 Qxf3 will be at least slightly awkward.

Please share your insights Smiley
  
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