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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dutch vrs 1. Nf3 (Read 74246 times)
Zatara
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #53 - 06/15/08 at 05:52:13
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Hi guys, so what have we concluded as best versus the d3 line?
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FightingDragon
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #52 - 05/14/08 at 14:26:28
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Last weekend I had the opportunity to test 2. ... Nc6 in a tournament game!

1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6! 3.e4 (seems to be the absolute main line here) e5! 4.Nc3 Bb4!? 5.Bg5 Nf6 6.d4 ed4: 7.Nd4: fe4: 8.Bc4 Nd4: 9.Qd4: Nc3: 10.Qc3: c6! 11.0-0-0 (11.Qe5+ Qe7 12.Bf6: gf6: 13.Qh5+ Kf8 and with d5 coming next move black should be clearly better) d5 12.f3 0-0 13.fe4: Ne4: 14.Bd8: Nc3: 15.bc3: Rd8: 
and I was a clear pawn up in the endgame and should be winning (unfortunately I only drew  Sad).

I like this type of reversed King's gambit as I was also a successful King's gambit player some time ago.
But also objectively black should be OK as the combination of Nf3 and d3 doesn't allow white to hang on to the pawn (after ef5:) with g2-g4 too easily.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #51 - 01/30/08 at 02:56:30
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I think we've shown here that Black actually has to play very carefully against the BDG to gain the advantage.  I'll take the reversed BDG position with White having to play Qd3, especially if a rather calm, strategical engine like Rybka thinks it's OK.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #50 - 01/30/08 at 02:08:20
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Either I overlooked it or nobody has mentioned 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4 e6 4.d5!? yet.
What should black play now? After 4. ... ed5: 5.Qd5: strangely enough my Rybka suggests 5. ... Nf6!? 6.Qf5: d5 7.Qd3 and quite likes black here.
Actually, this is a position from the infamous BDG!!!  Tongue
It could also arise with reversed colours after 1.d4 d5 2.e4 de4: 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 ef3: 5.Nf3: Qd6?, but as the BDG is quite bad I'm not even sure white (or black in the Dutch) has so much even after Qd6/Qd3.

But what else? 5. ... d6 6.Nc3 Nf6 7.Qb3!? seems a bit annoying for black.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #49 - 09/20/07 at 09:20:55
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[quote author=Frendo link=1098049385/45#46 date=1176086134]
Looking once again at TalJechin's suggestion of 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4!? e6, I like it a lot more after now having done some study of the Classical Dutch and of the Uberdeker Defence.  After 4.c4, I like TalJechin's 4...Qe7 because it looks good and seems more dynamic to me, but 4...Nf6 (from the game Viking mentioned), 4...Bb4+, and 4...d6 all deserve more investigation (the latter three being more usual moves in the Uberdeker (I think anyway, perhaps he'll respond to this.)[/quote]

Yes, the analogy is interesting. In the comparable UD lines, White has the extra moves e3 or a3, neither of which are particularly useful to him I think. TalJechin's idea of 4...Qe7 is nice and can also be employed after 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Ktc6 ; 3. a3 f5 ; 4. Ktf3 and 3. e3 f5 ; 4. Ktf3, but indeed, 4. ...Bb4+ ; 5. Bb2 Qe7 also intending 6. d5 Ktd8 and  4. ...d6 ; 5. d5 Ktce7 are more typical. 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5.d5 however, is rather awkward for Black.
  
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MNb
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #48 - 05/10/07 at 02:22:55
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In that last game Williams prefers 6...Nxe4 =.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #47 - 05/09/07 at 17:13:06
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Quote:


(A) If 4...Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 e4 7.Nh4 Bg4, then 8.Be2 Bxe2 9.Qxe2 d5 10.Qb5+ Nc6 11.Bg5 Bb4  12.Qxb7 Nxd4 has occured in several games, including a game that GM Kindermann lost with Black.  After 13.Bxf6! gxf6 14.0-0 (I don't think 14.0-0-0 is so convincing because of 14...Bxc3 15.bxc3 Rb8 16.Qxa7 Ne2+ 17.Kd2 Nf4 and the position is a mess) 14...Bxb4 (what else? The Pd5 is hanging.)  15.bxc3 Ne2+ 16.Kh1 0-0 17.Rae1 Nf4 (17...Nxc3 is very risky because of 18.Qb3!, and after the apparently forced 18...f5 19.g3 Qf6 20.Re3 White seems to be winning) and after either 18.c4 or 18.g3 Black's position seems too loose, and I would think that White must be much better.  I would go so far as to say that after 9.Qxe2 Black may already be significantly worse.



Time moves on, and so does opening theory. I came across a few games and wanted to infuse new life into this discussion:

Have a look at the following game:

[Event "EU-ch 8th"]
[Site "Dresden"]
[Date "2007.04.03"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Roos,Michael"]
[Black "Graf,Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A04"]
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 Bxf5 6.d4 e4 7.Nh4 Bg4 8.Be2 Bxe2 
9.Qxe2 d5 10.Qb5+ Nc6 11.Bg5 Qd7 12.Bxf6 gxf6 13.Qxd5 Qxd5 14.Nxd5 0-0-0 15.Ne3 Nxd4 16.Nhf5 Nxf5 
17.Nxf5 Rg8 18.g3 Rg5 19.Ne3 Rb5 20.Rb1 Bb4+ 21.Kf1 Bc3 22.b3 Rc5 23.a4 Rd2 24.Rd1 Rxd1+ 
25.Nxd1 Bd4 26.c4 Rc6 27.a5 Ra6 0-1

It looks like 11. Qd7 is an improvement over 11. ... Bb4

The other main line is 5. d4 ed4 and now either 5. Qd4 or Nd4:

[Event "EU-ch 8th"]
[Site "Dresden"]
[Date "2007.04.03"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Luechtemeier,Peter"]
[Black "Schiefner,Ray"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "A04"]
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.Qxd4 fxe4 7.Nxe4 Qe7 8.Bd3 d5 
9.Bg5 dxe4 10.0-0-0 Nc6 11.Bb5 Bd7 12.Bxc6 Bxc6 13.Rhe1 Rd8 14.Qc3 Rxd1+ 15.Rxd1 exf3 16.Re1 fxg2 
17.Rxe7+ Bxe7 18.Qe1 Kf7 19.f3 Bc5 0-1



[Event "Polyarniy Krug op"]
[Site "Salekhard"]
[Date "2006.11.29"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Ovetchkin,Roman"]
[Black "Gutenev,Alexander"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "A04"]
1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 d6 3.e4 e5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 fxe4 7.Bg5 Be7 8.Bc4 c6 
9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.Nxe4 d5 11.Nxf6+ Qxf6 12.Qe2+ Kf7 13.0-0-0 dxc4 14.Qxc4+ Be6 15.Nxe6 Qxe6 16.Qb4 b5 
17.Rhe1 Qh6+ 18.f4 Re8 19.Rxe8 Kxe8 20.Qe4+ Kf7 21.Rd8 Qh4 22.Qe8+ Kf6 23.Rd6+ Kf5 24.Qe6+  
1-0


So, what do you think? 

  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #46 - 04/09/07 at 02:35:34
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Quote:
At chesspublishing, which section deals with 1.Nf3 f5 2.d3 - is it McDonald or Watson territory?   


You probably already know this by now, but it's in the Flank Openings section.  There are 3 games there with 2.d3 all annotated by Kosten.   

Looking once again at TalJechin's suggestion of 2.d3 Nc6 3.d4!? e6, I like it a lot more after now having done some study of the Classical Dutch and of the Uberdeker Defence.  After 4.c4, I like TalJechin's 4...Qe7 because it looks good and seems more dynamic to me, but 4...Nf6 (from the game Viking mentioned), 4...Bb4+, and 4...d6 all deserve more investigation (the latter three being more usual moves in the Uberdeker (I think anyway, perhaps he'll respond to this.)

I think I'll start trying 1...f5 versus 1.Nf3 online to see if anyone tries 2.d3 against me.  If anyone plays anything that seems promising for White I'll report it.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #45 - 01/14/07 at 19:49:53
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/10/07 at 06:03:39:
Hi Markovich,

After 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fe 3.Ng5, I like Williams' 3...Nc6.  I don't think White has anything here; in fact, I think Black's better, though I may be missing something.  The key idea is to delay ...Nf6 to try to gain a tempo with ...Be7 hitting the knight on g5.  For instance:

1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nc6 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 e5 6.Be2 Be7! and Black's slightly better.  I guess White needs to play a different sixth move, though I'm not sure what; probably 6.d4 ed 7. Bd3 but I'm too lazy right now to look at it.  I remember looking at this whole line a year ago or so and coming to the conclusion that Black is fine.  White definitely gets some compensation, though.  Off the top of my head I'd say that Black probably shouldn't take the piece...maybe I'll look at this again soon.


I don't know that I agree that Black is any better after 6...Be7, but it does seem that White has nothing.  Thanks for that info.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #44 - 01/10/07 at 19:32:17
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Thanks for the info TalJechin, I don't have Kindermann's books.  I said "Williams' 3...Nc6" meaning that he recommends it in Play the Classical Dutch, not that he came up with it.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #43 - 01/10/07 at 12:28:34
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ErictheRed wrote on 01/10/07 at 06:03:39:
Hi Markovich,

After 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fe 3.Ng5, I like Williams' 3...Nc6.  I don't think White has anything here; in fact, I think Black's better, though I may be missing something.  The key idea is to delay ...Nf6 to try to gain a tempo with ...Be7 hitting the knight on g5.  For instance:

1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nc6 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 e5 6.Be2 Be7! and Black's slightly better.  I guess White needs to play a different sixth move, though I'm not sure what; probably 6.d4 ed 7. Bd3 but I'm too lazy right now to look at it.  I remember looking at this whole line a year ago or so and coming to the conclusion that Black is fine.  White definitely gets some compensation, though.  Off the top of my head I'd say that Black probably shouldn't take the piece...maybe I'll look at this again soon.


Actually the Nc6-idea goes back to Kindermann's first edition in german, and the main point is not so much gaining time on Ng5 as move ordering white into a line considered good for black. Previously 3...e5 4.d3 was played but then 4.d4! was discovered, which turned out to give white some chances...
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #42 - 01/10/07 at 10:38:07
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I agree with Eric: I had this position once against Simon Williams and I felt White had nothing. The whole idea that this gambit was strong arose recently from Keene’s hyping the ‘refutation’ 2 fxe4 3 Ng5 d5 4 d3 Qd6, which in turn was ‘refuted’ by supporters of the gambit (I forget how now) which led to a burst of interest in it. Or that’s how it was over here, anyway.
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #41 - 01/10/07 at 06:03:39
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Hi Markovich,

After 1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fe 3.Ng5, I like Williams' 3...Nc6.  I don't think White has anything here; in fact, I think Black's better, though I may be missing something.  The key idea is to delay ...Nf6 to try to gain a tempo with ...Be7 hitting the knight on g5.  For instance:

1.Nf3 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Ng5 Nc6 4.d3 e3 5.Bxe3 e5 6.Be2 Be7! and Black's slightly better.  I guess White needs to play a different sixth move, though I'm not sure what; probably 6.d4 ed 7. Bd3 but I'm too lazy right now to look at it.  I remember looking at this whole line a year ago or so and coming to the conclusion that Black is fine.  White definitely gets some compensation, though.  Off the top of my head I'd say that Black probably shouldn't take the piece...maybe I'll look at this again soon.





  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #40 - 01/10/07 at 05:51:56
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Markovich wrote on 01/10/07 at 04:01:12:
But for all the talk of 2. d3 here, isn't 2. e4 very strong?  I always thought it was.

I also thought 2.e4 was very strong after 1.Nf3 f5 (an impression first formed watching a master, and Dutch Defense expert, get slaughtered playing the black pieces in this line in a game I watched when I was in high school).

Maybe some Dutch Defense experts in this forum want to weigh in on this one?
  
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Re: Dutch vrs 1. Nf3
Reply #39 - 01/10/07 at 04:01:12
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But for all the talk of 2. d3 here, isn't 2. e4 very strong?  I always thought it was.
  
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