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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Please, refute the BDG if you can. (Read 33795 times)
Scholar
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #35 - 09/17/05 at 15:01:53
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Well, for X, here's another example where Black seems to win effortlessly.

Schoupal,P - Sikora,J (2191) [D00]
Trinec op Trinec (1), 27.12.2001

1.e4 d5 2.d4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 e6 9.g5 Nd5 10.Bd3 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Bd6 12.0-0 0-0 13.Qe4 g6 14.Rb1 b6 15.Be3 Bc7 16.Rf3 Qd5 17.Qg4 Qd6 18.Bf4 Qe7 19.Bxc7 Qxc7 20.Rbf1 20...Nd7 21.Bc4 Qd6 22.Kg2 b5 23.Bd3 Rae8 24.c4 c5 25.cxb5 cxd4 26.Re1 Qd5 27.Qg3 e5 28.Qh4 Nc5 29.Be4 Qxa2 30.Bd3 e4 31.Rxe4 Nxd3 32.Rxe8 Rxe8 0-1

But for ArKheiN, note that after something like: 20.Kg2 Nd7 21.h4 e5 22.h5 Rae8 23.hxg6 fxg6, and after Rh1 of Bc4 Black is in trouble.  Again, this isn't best play, but is a good example of the real pressure White gets.

I'm sure that Black can hold here, but it is not always a trivial task to defend, and Black has a lot of trouble developing the queenside.  It's not that Black's position is so bad, as that I think there are more promising alternatives.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #34 - 09/17/05 at 11:42:47
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Yes, White's play was not so good; I listed this game to show Black's possibilities.  The h4-h5 plan you suggested is much stronger than the game continuation which just exchanges dark square bishops and plays into Black's hands.  But I think Black has sufficient resources to defend against a plan involving h4-h5.  This demands accurate defense; however, I believe I have found a defensive plan that neutralizes White's attack.

My reason for pointing this line out is that many defenders of the Black side seem to ignore potentially promising continuations out of fear of a nebulous attack.  (I have been guilty of this myself!)  It is better to confront a kingside attack head on with a principled defense, than to lie in wait, dodging every feint of an attack.  Such an overly cautious approach can allow White to gain very real positional advantages!
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #33 - 09/17/05 at 08:49:49
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X have said : Quote:
1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3
Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5
Nd5 10. Bd3 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Bd6 12. O-O Qc7 13. Bd2
O-O 14. Qe4 g6 15. Bf4 Nd7 16. Rae1 Rae8 17. c4
Bxf4 18. Rxf4 e5 19. Rf3 Qd8 20. d5 Qxg5+ 21. Kh2
f5 22. Qe2 e4 23. Rg3 Qh6 24. dxc6 bxc6 25. c5
exd3 26. Qxe8 Rxe8 27. Rxe8+ Kf7 28. Rge3 dxc2  0-1


But nowhere White played the normal plan h4-h5 here, it's just the normal continuation of the attack! It can be good without the pawn on g6, and stronger with the pawn on g6! 14.h4 would have been good, but later also maybe. I don't think this variation really give problems to White, and Scholar seems to agree with me here.

And to Scholar, the Dragon in the sicilian defense often suffered of the repuation of being busted, but it's still playable! Here too the theory is still growing and evoluting. And for White, they have lot of possibles moves against the Teichmann, like I have said previously. 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4, it's logical that this defense is a good one, I respect that defense. 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 and now, like I have said, I have 3 main choice, the classical 8.Be3, the interesting 8.Qf2 and the sharp 8.g4. Which of them is the best? I don't know. You should mostly choose one of the 3 depending of your taste. Is 8.g4 totally sound after Qxd4? I don't know but in practice it's still have nices results despite the fact that Black seems better because of the 2 pawns. Even after 8.g4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Nb5!? seems playable! Tell me what you play against 11.Nb5 to show me an advantage?(not a provocative question, I really want to know if this move is good enough, because it has a theorical interest for the whole 8.g4 Qxd4 variation, because if this move is good, it could be played instead of 11.Qf2 as an improvement, even if Leisebein continue to play this move, and never tried 11.Nb5)
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #32 - 09/17/05 at 08:13:10
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Also I don't like 8...h6 for the following two reasons:
1)  It compromises the kingside pawn structure before Black has completed development.  BDG players thrive upon opportunities like this.
2)  It does not seem very consistent with 6...Bxf3.  Black has just relinquished the bishop pair with the exchange of the light-squared bishop for the knight.  In such situations, Black would like to limit the influence of the bishop pair by protecting the squares of the missing light-squared bishop.  If Black is to move a kingside pawn, ...g6 seems more desirable than ...h6 from this perspective.

I understand that one of the main objectives of ...h6 is to castle queenside; however, preparing for this at such an early stage can be a cumbersome maneuver.  For instance, take a look at Schoupal-MNb.  Even when accomplished, it is not clear that this is a safe place for the king.  For myself, 8...h6 at this stage violates a number of guiding principles in development, especially against the BDG.
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #31 - 09/17/05 at 07:36:53
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I noticed that both ArKheiN and Scholar seem to agree that

1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.e4 dxe4 4.f3 exf3 5.Nxf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6 8.g4 e6 9.g5 Nd5 10.Bd3 Nxc3 11.bxc3 Bd6

is good for White with the opinion that Black has trouble developing.  I think Black's position is quite resilient and structurally sound!  Black can usually castle and play ...g6 with a solid position, perhaps aiming to break with a later ...e5.  A good illustration of this plan is

[Event "Master Open"]
[Site "Singapore SIN"]
[Date "2004.??.??"]
[White "Aw Wai Onn"]
[Black "Ramu,K"]
[Round "2"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2009"]
[BlackElo "2258"]
[ECO "A45"]

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nc3 d5 3. e4 dxe4 4. f3 exf3 5. Nxf3
Bg4 6. h3 Bxf3 7. Qxf3 c6 8. g4 e6 9. g5
Nd5 10. Bd3 Nxc3 11. bxc3 Bd6 12. O-O Qc7 13. Bd2
O-O 14. Qe4 g6 15. Bf4 Nd7 16. Rae1 Rae8 17. c4
Bxf4 18. Rxf4 e5 19. Rf3 Qd8 20. d5 Qxg5+ 21. Kh2
f5 22. Qe2 e4 23. Rg3 Qh6 24. dxc6 bxc6 25. c5
exd3 26. Qxe8 Rxe8 27. Rxe8+ Kf7 28. Rge3 dxc2  0-1

This is a rather one-sided game, but it demonstrates Black's resources.  I really don't see the dreaded pressure from White here.  I don't think the bishop pair is that effective here.
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #30 - 09/16/05 at 20:21:52
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Quote:
But after 18..Nd7 19.Bh4 Nf6 20.Qe2 White is better!

I'm not sure White's better.  That continuation as well as 19...Qc5+ seemed unclear to me.  There are a few lines which result in lots of material being traded and a more or less equal endgame resulting.  At any rate, my interest in the entire 8...e6 complex is quite light, especially so after a move like Nb4, and I won't worry too much even if you are correct.
Quote:
You are maybe right, but was is sure is that 10..Bb4, giving a tempo compared to 10..Be7 can only be inferior to 10..Be7 (It's not like if I had no good moves to play, and commit my position with a move)[\quote]
You'd think so, but the games in my database all show White quickly self-destructing.  For all I know, that could be book, but substantially I agree with you.
[quote]
About 8..Qxd4 9.Be3, I think only 9..Qd6! 10.g5 Nfd7 can give problems to White. With 8..Qb4, 8..Qe5 or 8..Qd8, Black have no advantages.

Sure.  As I'm sure you're aware, Fritz is not very reliable here for either side, so its numerical scores are basically meaningless to me.  Of course, White does have an attack, and I agree that Black will probably have to give back some material and defend carefully.  That said, I think Black has good ways of doing this.  h6 seems to be an interesting way of activating the Black kingside, and it may be the way to an advantage after 11.Qf2, say.

Of course, the 8...h6 line seems like a safe way to leave Black with basically all of the winning chances and keep the tactical complications to a minimum.  I would be quite happy to enter those lines OTB knowing only this idea.
Quote:
This tread is just another example of the complexity of the BDG, and the differents positions that can arrise from differents strategies, and the theory of the BDG still evolue, and even you (anyone in this forum), or me can contribute to add a little thing to the theory, which is still growing and evoluting, sometime only one little improvement from one side can change an entire defense or attack!

Here, I must respectfully dissent.  What this thread shows is that every Black player can pick out his favorite line -- even ones which BDGers have ignored as 'not critical' -- and show that Black has good play; equality and maybe an edge.  The fact that there are two ways for Black to reach a better game even after 6...Bxf3 (surely a sideline of a sideline for the BDG complex) is not a good sign for the health of the gambit.  I recall someone, speaking of some variation in the dragon, that one critical (i.e., lost for black) line can be patched; two critical lines and the variation is dead.  This is something of an overstatement, but there are dozens of critical lines against the BDG, and one can spend (waste?) a lifetime trying to patch them all.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #29 - 09/16/05 at 20:17:11
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Here are some completes CC games by Peter Leisebein to show that despite the 2 pawns up all is not easy, with the line 8.g4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 11.Qf2 :

Leisebein-Wiese Uwe 2004 : 11..Ne5 12.Bg2 Nbd7 13.Rd1 Qe6 14.0-0 h6 15.Ne4 Qg6 16.Bf4 hxg5 17.Bxe5 Nxe5 18.Qg3 f6 19.Qb3 g4 20.Qe6 Rd8 21.Qd6+ Rxd6 22.Rxd6 Nf3+ 23.Rxf3 1/2 (White have perpetual check)

Leisebein-Class Wolfgang 2005 : 11..Ne5 12.Bg2 Nbd7 13.0-0 h6 14.Rad1 Qe6 15.Ne4 (transposition in the previous game) 15..f6 (Black deviate from 15..Qg6)16.g6 Nxg6 17.Nc5 Nxc5 18.Bxc5 Ne5 19.Bxa7 g6 20.Qb6 Bg7 21.Qxb7 0-0 22.Bd4 f5 23.Bc3 Rfb8 24.Qc7 Rc8 25.Qb7 Qxa2 26.Ra1 Qxa1 27.Rxa1 Rxa1 28.Kf2 Rd8 29.Qxe7 Nf7 30.Qc5 Bxc3 31.Qxc3 1/2

Leisebein-Weingarzt Wilfried 2003 : 11..e6 12.Bd3 Qe5 (Qc7!?)13.0-0-0 Qa5 14.Kb1 Ne5 15.Ne4 Bbd7 16.Be2 0-0-0 17.Rhg1 Be7 18.Bd4 Rhf8 19.Qe3  h6 20.gxh6 gxh6 21.Qxh6 Rh8 22.Qe3 Rh4 23.Ng5 Rg8 24.Bxe5 Qxe5 25.Qd2 1/2

And for the pleasure, a little miniature in CC from me against Marx Patrick, 2005 after 8.g4 Qxd4 9.Be3 Qb4(quite common, but not the critical move)10.0-0-0 e6 11.Bd4 (11.Rd4 and 11.Nb5 are quite good too) Nbd7 12.g5 Nd5 13.Kb1 Qa5 14.Bc4 Nxc3 (better was Bb4! 15.Bxd5! cxd5 16.Bxg7! Rg8 17.Nxd5 Rxg7 18.Nf6+ Nxf6 19.gxf6 Rg5 20.Qxb7 Rd8 21.Rxd8+ Kxd8 (=) )15.Bxc3 Qxg5 (oh I am 3 pawn down now!) 16.Rxd7! Kxd7 17.Qxf7+ Qe7 18.Rd1+ Kc7 19.Be5+ Kb6 20.Qf4 1-0
The game could have followed : 20..a6(best move) 21.Bd6 Qxd6 22.Rxd6 Bxd6 23.Qxd6 Rad8 24.Qb4+ (+/-  /  +-)but some good technique and patience is needed to win, that's not easy to progress(I am winning slowly but surely), so for me he resigned too prematurely, even if he is going to lose here (against an accurate play of course).
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #28 - 09/16/05 at 15:03:18
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Quote:
Well, this entire Nb4 line was Fritz’s work not mine, as I hope was clear from my post.  I included it mainly for the bizarre position after Bxh7.  I agree that after 18…Qg5+, White can equalize, and maybe even do a bit better than that.  18…Nd7 might be better for Black, but I think White is OK.


But after 18..Nd7 19.Bh4 Nf6 20.Qe2 White is better!

Quote:
In the 10…Be7 line, I don’t like 12…Nd7.  Frankly, compared to the same position after Black wastes a tempo on Bb4-Be7, Black is better not obstructing the queen (which watches d4), though White can temporize (in the 10…Bb4 line) with 13.c3 and the positions may transpose.  This is an interesting subtlety, but probably Black does better playing 10…Be7 and then 12…Qb6.  At any rate, I don’t see any breakthroughs for White.


You are maybe right, but was is sure is that 10..Bb4, giving a tempo compared to 10..Be7 can only be inferior to 10..Be7 (It's not like if I had no good moves to play, and commit my position with a move)

About 8..Qxd4 9.Be3, I think only 9..Qd6! 10.g5 Nfd7 can give problems to White. With 8..Qb4, 8..Qe5 or 8..Qd8, Black have no advantages. But theses positions after the double pawn sacrifice are really hard to assess. In theory, it seems that there is not always a concrete way to compensate the 2 pawns, but in practice it's a lot different. If I wanted to analyse 8.g4!? it's because this move is very sharp, and it's at least equal (or real winning chances)against every Black's responses,(other than 8..Qxd4 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 where I am myself quite septical) like we have seen in our analysis. The other reason I gave 8.g4!?, is Peter Leisebein's favourite, where he have a very good results, but he admit that theses positions are difficults to judge and to play for both side. After 8..Qxd4 9.Be3 Qd6 10.g5 Nfd7 (I think this is the critical variation of the whole 8.g4!?, because in any other lines, I don't fear anything), Leisebein prefered first 11.Bd2 and after 11..Ne5 Qe2 I have 2 wins from him.(but like you Scholar, I am quite septical here) and in the recent years, he seems to prefer 11.Qf2 but here too, I am not sure about White's compensation. My general conclusion of 8..Qxd4 is that the game is very sharp, theorically better for Black because of the material advantage, but hard to play for both side, and not that bad in practice (still goods results of course, but I am not convinced by White's real compensation in line with 9..Qd6) And for curiosity, I watched to Fritz's evaluation after 11.Qf2, and despite the fact that he is generally materialist, he agree that White have a compensation of 75% for 2 pawns (about -0.50, 1 pawn totally compensated and an half pawn compensated in a material point of view, and somes times in a normal BDG position he give -0.50 where Black is "only" 1 pawn up. And generally when you continue to play best moves from White side, Fritz himself "improve"White evaluation gradually, moves after moves to finally reach an equality. )It was just an interesting point of view, but Fritz is not always a reference, it's even more true in the BDG when he sometimes gives defensives and passives moves to White because he plays like if he had to survive with a pawn down, which is contrary to the gambit spirit : attacking at all cost (and 8.g4 is in this spirit). But if White is doubt of White's compensation, or is just scared to offer another pawn without anything concrete, (only dynamics compensation, that can often be used to regain material with (=) or even more, but not sure they always can.) you can still play the classical 8.Be3 (Fritz the materialist seems to prefer this move, but was the old mainline I think) or 8.Qf2!?(Ciesilsky variation) which are more conventional and not bad.

This tread is just another example of the complexity of the BDG, and the differents positions that can arrise from differents strategies, and the theory of the BDG still evolue, and even you (anyone in this forum), or me can contribute to add a little thing to the theory, which is still growing and evoluting, sometime only one little improvement from one side can change an entire defense or attack! When you realise that theses analysis is just a part from my works and researchs of existing analysis, it just deserves the right to have some respects for the BDGers, who are also chess lovers, like any of you, and fights hard to defend a meprised line (only somes guys are concerned, generally the type of guys who love to uses only words to say that the gambit is so bad).


  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #27 - 09/16/05 at 13:51:11
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nexirae, ah, very impressive. you won vs me in a USCL simul. you "forgot" to mention that. The one simul I did on USCL was pathetic. The windows were all screwed up and I lost about half the games on time. I guess the BDG is good after all. Again, a hearty congratulations.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #26 - 09/16/05 at 13:43:06
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Global Chess Server, i.e., USCL.  Feel free to sign on, it's still in your game history.  Not blitz, simul though, so we can forgive you.   Wink

Anyway, I did miss Bf5, and must say it's good.  Give me some time please Smiley 

NeX iRae
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #25 - 09/16/05 at 12:53:14
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nexirae

what is this game? what is GCS GCS? I had 13 minutes left? To me this looks like a blitz game. If you beat me in a blitz game with the BDG that you were lost in and put it here, congratulations. But it shows more about you than it does about me or the BDG.

fluffy
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #24 - 09/16/05 at 08:07:24
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Come on Lev, your itch to move your b pawn 2 squares forward is historical!
Someone must have been willing to make an innocent joke about it...

Nexirae, you can compare the line given by Sacapawn and X to the main line of 4.dxe5 Qxd1 5.Kxd1 Nc6 6.Nxe4 Bg4+! (6...Nxe5 7.Bf4 Bf5 8.Bxe5 Bxe4 9.Bxc7 Rc8 10.Bb5+ Ke7 11.f3 Bxc2+ 12.Kxc2 Rxc7+ 13.Kb3 dead drawn) 7.f3 0-0-0+ and share your further conclusions with us  Smiley

Arkhein 5.Nf3 Bb4+ 6.Bd2 Bxd2+ 7.Qxd2 Nf6 8.Nxf6 Qxf6 pretty equal, maybe too much for Black's legitimate ambitions, I concede, half-heartedly.

I savour your voice Smyslov_fan, keep burning  Wink 

  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #23 - 09/16/05 at 02:20:34
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Yes, I think 7...Bf5 is the most consistent move.  This is certainly not a move to gloss over.  I think Black has excellent compensation if White tries to maintain the pawn.  A little odd for a gambit player to miss this idea.  Black doesn't always have to be a sitting duck!  Perhaps, you will now claim advantage for being a pawn up.  Tongue
  

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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #22 - 09/16/05 at 01:17:47
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@nexirae:

In your variation 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 e5 4.Nge2 Bb4 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 Nc6 7.Nxe4 I suggest the very natural 7.-,Bf5

And it seems Black has at least equality.

E.g. 8.N2g3 0-0-0+ 9.Bd2 Bxe4 10.Nxe4 Bxd2 11.Nxd2 Nxe5 12.f3 Nf6 and Black is better.
  
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Re: Please, refute the BDG if you can.
Reply #21 - 09/15/05 at 23:28:23
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This is absolutely ridiculous!!

  Nowhere in my published writings and analyses did I ever propose 1 d4 d5 2 e4 de4 3 Nc3 e5  4 b4 ?  This must be someone else, attributing something to me that I never played!

  
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