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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) KG & QG (Read 12692 times)
woofwoof
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #20 - 11/09/05 at 13:15:28
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I'm much more convinced that 2.c4 is a better move than the comparable Pawn to Bishop 4 move because it offers far richer play, it is a more useful move in the fight for the center, and is strategically more desirable than 1.e4 e5 2.f4.


How is 2.c4 strategically more desirable to 2.f4???

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The King's Gambit really is very limited strategically compared to the Queen's Gambit, and the QG offers White many opportunities to win material early on without risking much.  Even the most ardent KG fan will agree that White risks quite a bit more in the KG than in the QG., right?

The KG uses its lead in development for a quick attack on Black's K-side. The QG on the other hand has long term positional pressure on the board & has e4 as a long term goal. So how does the QG match up to the KG in terms of tactical scope or aggression?

I agree  with MNb that the KG is the way to go if you want to win and enjoy taking risks. In fact come to think abt it....  as long as there is sufficient play & initiative for the pawn, there is very little risk cos white's attack just plays itself.

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In essence, the question isn't really meant to denigrate the KG, but to highlight the amazing strength, depth, and versatility of the QG.


Versatility???  how?
  

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TalJechin
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #19 - 11/02/05 at 04:13:59
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Taljechin,

I didn't mean any disrespect to you or the KG when I said that the QG is richer.  I'm surprised that you took offense and more surprised that you disagree.  I never said that the KG was unplayable, I only compared it to the QG.


Nope, I didn't take offense I just don't agree with ya!

I've played both openings we're comparing, each exclusively for many years. If you haven't you should try the KG before having opinions about it or you might end up on a lost highway... Wink

There are many strategic old games in the QG too Botvinnik played a lot of them for example, so I don't see how 'modern practice' would make your claim any more valid - today the QG is more popular, due to the big guys playing it. But historically, we can go back to the early 1900s when 1.d4 was a weird opening, probably regarded as we look on 1.b4 today.

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That means, we're comparing the richness of the Slav, Semi-Slav, QGA, QGD, Tarrasch, Catalan, and so on with the richness of the King's Gambit Accepted and Declined.


Another one eyed comparison...

The other side of the coin is that we're comparing the richness of the: Vienna, Adelaide, KGD, KGA, Falkbeer (you forgot the Albin CG btw), Nimzowitsch CG, Modern/Abbazia, the Bishop Gambit, King's Knight Gambit, Queen's Knight Gambit, Allgaier, Muzio, Rosentreter etc with the Queen's Gambit Accepted and Declined.

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Hmmm.  You are right, I am pretty limited in my understanding of chess strategy.


Well if you say so... Wink

- I just assumed that you either don't know the KG or defines strategy in a limited way...
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #18 - 11/02/05 at 01:11:54
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Taljechin,

I didn't mean any disrespect to you or the KG when I said that the QG is richer.  I'm surprised that you took offense and more surprised that you disagree.  I never said that the KG was unplayable, I only compared it to the QG. 

Regarding my own view of strategy, I know it is limited.  It's limited by historical and cultural factors.  But I don't for one moment think that these limitations have led me so far astray when I say the QG is richer than the KG. 

It's interesting that you support your claims with games from 1923 and from the heyday of Spassky's reign.  You won't have to go so far back for examples in the QG.  Remember, we're comparing 1.d4 d5 2.c4 with 1.e4 e5 2.f4.

That means, we're comparing the richness of the Slav, Semi-Slav, QGA, QGD, Tarrasch, Catalan, and so on with the richness of the King's Gambit Accepted and Declined.  Hmmm.  You are right, I am pretty limited in my understanding of chess strategy. Tongue
  
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basqueknight
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #17 - 11/01/05 at 22:18:17
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As for lost:

I like playing both sides of the Kings Gambit but i dont think black has anything close to an easy game. As with any gambit it is probley better to give back the pawn at an inopputune time for the first player.
  
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MNb
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #16 - 11/01/05 at 21:24:28
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This is correct. Somewhere else I have pointed out, that on the highest level (both players 2600+) the KG scores rather well - with a low drawing rate. White scores better in Petrov, but almost 60% of the games end in a draw.
The conclusion is, that the KG is the way to go if you want to win and enjoy taking risks.
And yes, Smyslov_Fan, I am aware of all those sharp lines in which Black plays dxc4, White allows b7-b5. To a high extent White plays such lines in KG-style ...
  

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TalJechin
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #15 - 11/01/05 at 15:24:11
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[quote author=Smyslov_Fan] The King's Gambit really is very limited strategically compared to the Queen's Gambit [/quote]

Have you ever played the KG as white?

Or do you just have a limited view of what strategy is?

Sure, the QG has the exchange variation with its minority attack, use of the c-file or the long term plan of achieving e3-e4 with a big centre.

But the KG has definitely its own dynamic strategy, and since the f-file is pointing at the king it's usually also tactical and attacking (and not technical as in the QG c-file), but who said a kingside attack isn't strategic?

The KG has several ideas where material is given to enhance a big centre and pressure, e.g: the Rosentreter / Muzio, or KGD with ...Nd4, Qg3 Nxc2+, Kd1 Nxa1, Qxg7; giving Rh1 for a central grip in some lines with ...Qh4+ Kf1 Ng3+ hxg3 Qxh1, or various thematic pawn breaks followed by pieces, e.g: e4-e5 dxe5, Ne4 exploiting black's weakened d6&f6 squares.

But there's also purely strategic ideas too, e.g. the Kieseritzky endgame, where white may still be a pawn down but his dark square domination still gives winning chances (Stoltz-Sämisch in 1923 for example) or the typical middlegames/endgames where white has the edge of 1 centre pawn vs 0, which combined with a slight initiative can be very good even with just a couple of minor pieces left.

The KG is risky in the sense that white can't play with a 'draw in hand' i.e. if/when black equalises it's not a dead draw as so often in the QGA or Petroff at GM level.

But the few GMs who play it well, very seldom lose. Ivanchuk has 2 of 2. Spassky never lost a serious game with the KG, I don't think Michael Adams has either, Short has lost 1 KG vs Shirov in 1997 but has plenty of wins with it to compensate...

Sadly, they rarely play it nowadays, which can have a number of explanations, perhaps even GMs grow old and start worrying about missing tactical shots? Though, personally, I'd be far more worried in a typical Najdorf middlegame than in a KG...
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #14 - 11/01/05 at 14:17:46
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Taljechin,

Good point about choosing lines that Fritz over-estimates!  But do you have an answer to my previous post about the relative values of the two systems?
  
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TalJechin
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #13 - 11/01/05 at 05:28:36
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Most of all, i think in these Fritzy times, it is always more likely for 1. d4 d5 2. c4  to survive longer than 1. e4 e5 2. f4 (where my computer screams =+ on the second move already!) 


Well, if you prefer to let your calculator do the thinking for y'a,  I suppose there ain't no use trying to talk y'a into the KG...  Wink

But in these fritzy days, I'd figure a good way of getting winning chances is to find lines where the computer will overestimate your opponent's chances for him...
  
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #12 - 11/01/05 at 03:18:42
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Well, 10 years ago I went from the QG to the KG myself since I didn't see what white had in the Slav - usually white seemed to postpone taking back on c4 until the pawn sac was for real.

White has some compensation of course but I still don't see why these slav gambit positions at move 10-15 should be better than the KG with 3.Bc4 at move 10-15, other than that the slav QG is well studied even by amateurs these days...

Btw, in the KG black rarely plays a mirrored Slav-setup... Grin


well...the Slav is a serious problem for 1. d4 players, and the only way to solve it is, I think, to bite the bullet and get down to learning the sharpest lines, like those beginning with 4... dxc4 5. a4 Bf5 6. Ne5 and Botvinnik/Moscow. But assuming one is willing to do that, White has good chances, and risks less than the KG (yes, even in the Botvinnik).

Most of all, i think in these Fritzy times, it is always more likely for 1. d4 d5 2. c4  to survive longer than 1. e4 e5 2. f4 (where my computer screams =+ on the second move already!)  Shocked
  
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #11 - 11/01/05 at 01:42:11
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There are many general reasons for preferring to sacrifice the c-pawn over the f-pawn, including the old saw about not opening up your own king's position.  However, those arguments never held much sway with me because Black does have to worry about his own king too.

I'm much more convinced that 2.c4 is a better move than the comparable Pawn to Bishop 4 move because it offers far richer play, it is a more useful move in the fight for the center, and is strategically more desirable than 1.e4 e5 2.f4. 

The King's Gambit really is very limited strategically compared to the Queen's Gambit, and the QG offers White many opportunities to win material early on without risking much.  Even the most ardent KG fan will agree that White risks quite a bit more in the KG than in the QG., right?

In essence, the question isn't really meant to denigrate the KG, but to highlight the amazing strength, depth, and versatility of the QG.  I really believe this isn't just a matter of taste, but a matter of counting the number and variety of opening systems that arise from each opening.
  
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TalJechin
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #10 - 10/31/05 at 08:24:33
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It's precisely because 1. e4 e5 2. f4 is not as good as 1. d4 d5 2. c4, that I prefer 1. d4. Like any KG player I find attacking the enemy king fun. But I prefer consolidating a stable space advantage first. My problem with 1. e4 is that the White centre advantage disapears a wee bit too quickly in openings like the Petroff.


Well, 10 years ago I went from the QG to the KG myself since I didn't see what white had in the Slav - usually white seemed to postpone taking back on c4 until the pawn sac was for real.

White has some compensation of course but I still don't see why these slav gambit positions at move 10-15 should be better than the KG with 3.Bc4 at move 10-15, other than that the slav QG is well studied even by amateurs these days...

Btw, in the KG black rarely plays a mirrored Slav-setup... Grin
  
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #9 - 10/31/05 at 07:50:19
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It's precisely because 1. e4 e5 2. f4 is not as good as 1. d4 d5 2. c4, that I prefer 1. d4. Like any KG player I find attacking the enemy king fun. But I prefer consolidating a stable space advantage first. My problem with 1. e4 is that the White centre advantage disapears a wee bit too quickly in openings like the Petroff.
  
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #8 - 10/31/05 at 07:02:42
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Well as a lifelong pawngrabber, I can assure that a pawn can be very important Grin
Usually when you accept a gambit, you give some other advantage to the gambiteer. So if the pawn is easy to win back what is the use of accepting it, since the gambiteer often can keep that other advantage?
To give an extreme example (I often used examples like this with kids): 1 e4 e5 2 f4 exf4 3 Nf3 d6 4 d4 Nf6 5 Nc3 Be7 6 Bxf4 gives white the pawn back for nothing.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: KG & QG
Reply #7 - 10/31/05 at 05:55:24
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"As for Lost  Highway's opinions - well does anyone take them seriously any longer?!"
I try, but on the subject of gambits it is a bit hard, since he defended Qa5, Nf6-e4xc3 in the QG Exchange and even could not admit that this pawn really is too dangerous to grab.

"which I think is a valid reason for accepting a gambit"
As a lifelong gambiteer I can assure, that these are our favourite opponents. They accept everything, because they do not see a clear cut refutation. Then they are overoptimistic in their defence until it is too late.
Willempie, there is still hope for you. The other reasons you pointed out to accept the KG are much, much better.
  

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Re: KG & QG
Reply #6 - 10/31/05 at 04:57:08
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It is not only because the pawn is more difficult to regain (which I think is a valid reason for accepting a gambit) in the KG (you can try to keep your pawn in the QGA after 3 e4, but I really dont like that). Another reason for accepting the f4 pawn, is that the pawn is on a tricky spot (as in the Nf6-Nh5 or g5 defenses) and that the a7-g1 and h4-e1 diagonals are weakened. The respective weakened diagonals in the QGA are not that important.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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