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Normal Topic C11: Classical variation 4..Ne4 (Read 10833 times)
Lanark
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Re: C11: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #9 - 08/11/13 at 00:37:15
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The whole line seems to have been buried because of 6.Bc4.
Have there been any new developments? I really hope so, because I agree with MNb:

Quote:
I would love it, when 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 proved to be playable.


I am also interested in the line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 5.Nce2 f6.
Końca and Przewoźnik give 6.Nf4 as critical, but there have been hardly any games with this move in recent years. 6.f3 is seen more often.
According to Końca and Przewoźnik the best move after 6.Nf4 is 6...Qe7, but they are not very enthusiastic about Black's chances to play for a win in the line 7.Qh5+ Qf7 8.Qxf7+ Kxf7 9.f3 fxe5 10.fxe4 exf4 11.Bxf4 (I translate from the german edition: "White doesn't risk losing. On the other hand, Black has chances to draw with accurate defence.").

Maybe Black is ok in this variation, but has anyone still found a better answer to 6.Nf4, or is this variation not played anymore because 5.Nxe4 dxe4 6.Bc4 is so well known to be just better for White?
  
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dom
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #8 - 07/22/06 at 10:04:56
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Seifert-Przewoznik,Bielsko Biala 1990 was played with 9.oo (not 9.Nf4 I gave in my first post).

  
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M. Pytel
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #7 - 07/09/06 at 17:51:46
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In fact, J. Przewoźnik's book (writen in collaboration with Damian Końca, well - known Polish correspondence player) is worth recommendation. However, at least according to my father, the whole line is dubious due to the continuation discussed here. On the other hand, my father playing it against strong players such as M. Chandler, G. Timoschenko faced always 4. Bd3. I should also mention  that he was using this line in response to 3. Nd2 and never after 3. Nc3.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #6 - 07/05/06 at 22:59:09
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Quote:
13... Be7 is posssible there. J. Przewoźnik in his book "Jumping a little bit differently 4... Ne4!? in the French Defence" (Skacząc trochę inaczej 4... Se4!? w obronie francuskiej) gives such an exemple:

Seifert - Przewoźnik Bielsko - Biała 1990

13... Be7 14. Qg4 g6 15. Rac1 h5 16. Qh3 Qd7 17. Rc3 Nd5 18. Bd5 Bd5 19. Rfc1 Bd8 20. b3 Bb7 21. Qg3 b5 22. ab5 ab5 23. b4 Ra4 24. Rb3 Bd5 25. Bc4 =

However, it was also my father, IM Krzysztof Pytel, who introduced this line into tournament's practice.



I wondered if you were any relation to him!

Incidentally, I have the German edition of that book.  Has some pretty stirring rhetoric about not being afraid to blaze new trails etc.
  
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M. Pytel
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #5 - 07/05/06 at 21:36:30
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13... Be7 is posssible there. J. Przewoźnik in his book "Jumping a little bit differently 4... Ne4!? in the French Defence" (Skacząc trochę inaczej 4... Se4!? w obronie francuskiej) gives such an exemple:

Seifert - Przewoźnik Bielsko - Biała 1990

13... Be7 14. Qg4 g6 15. Rac1 h5 16. Qh3 Qd7 17. Rc3 Nd5 18. Bd5 Bd5 19. Rfc1 Bd8 20. b3 Bb7 21. Qg3 b5 22. ab5 ab5 23. b4 Ra4 24. Rb3 Bd5 25. Bc4 =

However, it was also my father, IM Krzysztof Pytel, who introduced this line into tournament's practice.
  
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dom
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #4 - 06/14/06 at 17:44:55
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Thks Mnb for the reply...

About: 13...Be7 (instead of 13..g6) , does White win a pawn ? (13...Be7 14.exf7 Kxf7  15.Bxd5 Bxd5 16.Qh5+   I didn't verify it with a chessboard)

Maybe it's a game to be played: 15.Qg4 Qd6 ... but I agree, Qg4 useful for White at some stage. I did'nt see how White will break the pawn center if Black plays Rad8-Bg7-Rhe8.
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #3 - 06/14/06 at 01:18:59
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/13/06 at 21:47:21:
Such a move goes against so many strategic and tactical principles that it just can't be good.  I'm sure someone will throw some lines out to justify it


I am afraid I have to agree with the first statement.
But as Przewoznik (iirc) has shown in a NIC-article, pawn grabbing is the wrong idea here - Black indeed can generate interesting counterplay for the pawn after say 6.Be3 c5 7.dxc5 Nd7 8.Qg4. White loses too many tempi.
It is the active development with 6.Bc4, to answer c5 with d5, which really is the problem. This is confirmed by the more than discouraging results (from Black's point of view) in the line given by Dom above; from a practical point of view one might call it a refutation.
So in this debate I am only interested in 4.e5 Ne4 5.Nxe4 dxe4 6.Bc4, either as White or as Black. Sorry for the pawngrabbers amongst us.
  
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #2 - 06/13/06 at 21:47:21
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I think if 4...Ne4 were ever to prove truly playable I'd have to give up chess. Shocked

Such a move goes against so many strategic and tactical principles that it just can't be good.  I'm sure someone will throw some lines out to justify it, but until a world class player is beaten by it in a regulation game I'm not buying.

Black may be able to gain "some counterplay" in some lines, but then we're back to the old arguments about whether a small amount of discomfort is worth the equivalent of a pawn advantage out of the opening.

Me, I'm a member of Pawngrabbers Anonymous.  (We keep anonymous about our pawngrabbing, but we don't repent... very often.)
  
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MNb
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Re: Classical variation 4..Ne4
Reply #1 - 06/13/06 at 03:18:04
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I would love it, when 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 proved to be playable, as it is also possible after 3.Nd2. I am not very afraid of the deviation 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 5.Bd3 Nxd2. I propose to dub 4...Ne4 the Polish Variation, because of the contributions - both practical and theoretical - of Bednarski and Przewoznik.
I have played it myself a couple of times and never lost, but that was mainly because of the ignorance of my opponents. A couple of years ago I drew against Mungroo and Siban, who recently played in Turin.
Critical is 5.Nxe4 dxe4 6.Bc4! indeed. It is the reason I gave it up. After a6 7.a4 b6 8.Ne2 (or 8.Nh3) Bb7 9.Nf4 Nc6 I have only the game Pedzich-Przewoznik, POLch 1990, in my notes, which saw 10.Be3 Ne7 (not Na5 11.Ba2 c5 12.d5 exd5 13.Nxd5 +-) 11.Qg4 "with a clear advantage." I would like to be wrong after say c5 12.dxc5 Nf5 (I stole your idea) 13.Bxe6 fxe6 14.Qh5+ Ke7 and White can chose between a draw and the winning try 15.Ng6+ hxg6 16.Qxh8.
In your main line I wonder, if 13...Be7 is possible instead of 13...g6.
I also want to draw your attention to 15.Qg4 instead of 15.f3 and 15.Bxd5.
Wow, my beloved Dutch Iljin-Zjenevski combined with the French-Polish and Nh6 in the Advance - can this dream become true?
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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dom
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C11: Classical variation 4..Ne4
06/11/06 at 14:59:51
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I have just read Chapter 9 of the book "Opening for White according to Anand 1.e4" Khaliman Chess Stars Ed. book 6  (books 6 and 7 contains some French) and noticed some playable moves for Black, not given and not played (according to Chessbase online database).

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 (the system Khalifman gives vs the French) Nf6 4.e5 Ne4 (topic of some other old threads in the current forum) 5.Nxe4 dxe4 6.Bc4! a6 the idea is to play b5 developing the queenside with tempo) 7.a4 b6 8.Ne2 Bb7 9.Nf4 (better than 9.oo, becauseof 9...c5! - Khalifman) Nc6 10.c3 (Khalifman doesn't give another move, and it's common in the chapters I read...one move for White and wide coverage of Black moves : maybe because of book object: system for White)

Now, the move 10...Na5!? seems an interesting idea. In beginning of the game, White tried to counter c5 with d5, and now, it's time:
11.Ba2 c5 12.d5 exd5 13.e6 (13.Bxd5 Bxd5 14.Nxd5 Ra7= ; 13...Nxd5 c4) g6 (only now the move against Qh5+) 14.exf7+ (14.Bxd5 Bxd5 15.Qxd5 Qxd5 16.Nxd5 Rd8= because White knight is lost after Nxb6) Kxf7 15.f3 (15.Bxd5 Bxd5 16.Nxd5 Ra7=) c4 16.fxe4 Bc5 unclear

In the "main" line given by Gufeld, 10.Be3 Ne7! 11.oo (critical position for the Ne4 line according to Gufeld) Black can try 11...c5!? 12.dxc5 Nf5 and Black has some counterplay against the White pawns
 
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 11:00:03 by dom »  
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