Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pirc (Read 13201 times)
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #29 - 06/08/07 at 19:45:00
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 06/08/07 at 08:12:59:
Yes the Pirc is very bad, easy to beat, bla bla bla ... look at this one :
(2) Miralles,G (2486) - Mamedyarov,S (2757) [B07]


White's play is routine and Mamedyarov equalises effortlessly and then it's easy to apply 300 rating points superiority to convert that into a win. What'sinteresting is that I can find hardly Mamedyarov Pirc games in Mega2007. I suppose it's a handy weapon for not giving away any opening prep to the other big guns.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: Pirc
Reply #28 - 06/08/07 at 08:41:07
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 06/08/07 at 08:12:59:
Yes the Pirc is very bad, easy to beat, bla bla bla ... look at this one :
(2) Miralles,G (2486) - Mamedyarov,S (2757) [B07]
TOP 16 Clichy (8.2), 31.05.2007
1.d4 g6 2.e4 d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.0-0-0 b5 7.Bd3 b4 8.Nce2 Qa5 9.Kb1 c5 10.Nf3 Bb7 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.a3 Nfxe4 13.Bxe4 Nxe4 14.Qxb4 Qxb4 15.axb4 Bg7 16.Nf4 0-0 17.Rhe1 Rfb8 18.Nd2 Nf6 19.f3 Bc6 20.c3 a5 21.bxa5 Rxa5 22.Rc1 Bb5 23.Kc2 Ra2 24.Kb3 Rba8 25.Nb1 Ra1 26.Na3 Ba4+ 27.Kc4 Ra2 28.Nd3 e6 29.Bf4 e5 30.Bg5 d5+ 31.Kc5 Bf8+ 32.Kb6 Nd7+ 33.Kc7 Ra7+ 34.Kc8 Nb6+ 35.Kb8 Rd7 0-1

There's also Kamsky against Mamedyarov (how do you really spell his name mewonders) from the M-tel...
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #27 - 06/08/07 at 08:12:59
Post Tools
Yes the Pirc is very bad, easy to beat, bla bla bla ... look at this one :
(2) Miralles,G (2486) - Mamedyarov,S (2757) [B07]
TOP 16 Clichy (8.2), 31.05.2007
1.d4 g6 2.e4 d6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Be3 c6 5.Qd2 Nbd7 6.0-0-0 b5 7.Bd3 b4 8.Nce2 Qa5 9.Kb1 c5 10.Nf3 Bb7 11.dxc5 Nxc5 12.a3 Nfxe4 13.Bxe4 Nxe4 14.Qxb4 Qxb4 15.axb4 Bg7 16.Nf4 0-0 17.Rhe1 Rfb8 18.Nd2 Nf6 19.f3 Bc6 20.c3 a5 21.bxa5 Rxa5 22.Rc1 Bb5 23.Kc2 Ra2 24.Kb3 Rba8 25.Nb1 Ra1 26.Na3 Ba4+ 27.Kc4 Ra2 28.Nd3 e6 29.Bf4 e5 30.Bg5 d5+ 31.Kc5 Bf8+ 32.Kb6 Nd7+ 33.Kc7 Ra7+ 34.Kc8 Nb6+ 35.Kb8 Rd7 0-1
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James Vigus
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 07/30/06
Re: Pirc
Reply #26 - 05/11/07 at 10:02:13
Post Tools
Reading Gershon and Nor's brilliant new book _San Luis 2005_, I see I didn't get the line 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 f4 Bg7 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be3 b6 as in Kazimdzhanov-Svidler and Shirov-McNab quite right. The authors analyse this exhaustively, concluding that 15...e4 is probably best (as I thought), and close to equality after 16 Ne5 Nxe5 17 fxe5 Nc6 18 Bb5 Nxe5. They give 15...Ne3 an "!" for practical value, noting that 16 Rd2 Bh6! is more than fine for Black (JEH was right), but 16 Rd3! favours White. It takes a great deal of analysis to prove this...
6...b6 lives on, just about!

In his excellent latest Pirc update, John Watson has offered a number of comments and improvements on my analysis. I take his point that 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 h3 Bg7 5 g4 is a separate system from 4 Be3 intending h3 and g4 (the Archbishop Attack), but his own antidote based on an early ...d5 is quite convincing. I'm not sure whether this line should really be attributed to Nakamura on the basis of blitz games. I remember intending to include a funny game Crouch-Reilly in my book, which was given in an issue of _Dragon_ (Cambridge University chess magazine) in the late 80s or early 90s, accompanied by notes ridiculing Crouch's extravagant and unsuccessful play. But I lost the magazine. Can anyone look it up easily?!

After 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 Nbd7 John Watson prefers 6 g4 to 6 a4 Bg7 7 g4, giving in the latter line the improvement 7...e5 8 Nge2 d5! However, White could also try to refine his move-order here with 8 Bg2!?, clamping down on d5. He doesn't mind a possible recapture on d4 with the Be3.
This raises the question whether Black should go for ...d5 even earlier, i.e. 6 a4 e5 7 g4 d5. But natural (silicon!) moves do seem to give White the edge here.
Another successful outing for the Archbishop that Watson doesn't mention is Williams-Gagunashvili, Hastings 2006/7, which confirmed that ...Qa5 isn't a strong plan against this early g4.
There are sure to be more developments in these lines soon.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #25 - 03/11/07 at 20:44:30
Post Tools
Forgot to mention 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5 8.h4 h5 9.g4!? which might be even stronger than 9.Bh6 first.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #24 - 03/10/07 at 20:24:21
Post Tools
"But this is all very tricky and hasn't been much covered in books, so I can well imagine you could have something up your sleeve here..."
Yes indeed. All I will say here, is that one should analyze Tsjiboerdanidze-M.Piket, London 1985 thoroughly as well. It is very possible, that stuff like this is not good enough for GM's to combat the Pirc. Anyhow they don't need to play like this, having sound systems like the Austrian Attack and the Classical available. On amateur level things are different. These amateurs being potential buyers, I hope James Vigus will give such systems enough attention in his book. Nunn/McNab did not; imo their chapter on 4.Be3 is the weakest of the whole book.

About the same is true for 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 0-0 6.0-0-0 c6 7.f3 b5
7...b5 is necessary indeed. In some lines White plays h2-h4-h5xg6 and ...fxg6 is punished with Bc4+.

8.h4 h5
I don't dream to compare myself with Topalov. Still I would love to meet this.

9.Bh6 b4 10.Nce2 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be6 12.Nc1 Nbd7
I propose 13.Bd3 Nb6 14.Nge2
I would prefer thise line to the Judasin-Anand and Thinius-Vigus games eight days a week.

Spartaco Sarno's games are worth investigating for sure. It is important for White to get a feel for all the attacking ideas. Take for instance Efimov-Sarno, Saint Vincent 2000. Once again we must ask why 10.e5 ? In my simple opinion 10.Nge2 is the way to go, as there is no knight on b6 yet. Why do such strong players dare to sac the whole kingside to beat the Sicilian Dragon, but not when they meet the Pirc? Once again I don't get it. In the mean time, on my humble level, I rejoice every time I get the chance to play like this.

On 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6 6.Qc1 I have a question. What is exactly the difference between 5...Qb6 6.Qc1 Nbd7 7.f4 e5 8.Nf3 (has Black better than Bg7 here?) and 5...Bg7 6.f4 0-0 7.Nf3 Nbd7 8.Bd3 Qa5 9.0-0 e5 ? The white Queen has to go to either e1 or d2 anyway. So exactly how does the inclusion of x....Qb6 y.Qc1 disturb White's plans? Is there some trick along the g1-a7 diagonal, as soon White has castled?
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James Vigus
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 07/30/06
Re: Pirc
Reply #23 - 03/10/07 at 13:40:11
Post Tools
MNb: "4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 and 8.Bd3 is too timid; 8.0-0-0 is the move, intending b5 9.e5! Safer is 8.o-o-o Be6, but I think White can maintain some advantage."

I didn't find anything worrying for Black in the following game (annotated by Zakharevich in Informator 86):
J.Geller-I.Zakharevich, St Petersburg 2002 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Be3 Nf6 5. Qd2 c6 6. Bh6 Bxh6 7. Qxh6 Qa5 8. O-O-O b5 9. e5 dxe5 10. dxe5 Ng4 11. Qg7
Rf8 12. Ne4 Bf5 13. h3 Bxe4 14. hxg4 Nd7 15. e6 fxe6 16. Qd4 Bd5 17. a3 e5 18. Qe3 b4 19. f3 bxa3 20. Qxa3 Qxa3 1/2-1/2
But this is all very tricky and hasn't been much covered in books, so I can well imagine you could have something up your sleeve here...

Ill respond to some of MNbs analysis of 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 0-0 in notes to a game I played a few weeks ago it wasnt so well played, especially by me, but still might illustrate some ideas.

Marco Thinius (2365) James Vigus (2311)
Jena 2007
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 00 6.000 c6 7.f3
7.Kb1 b5 8.f3 Nbd7 9.e5?! was the above-mentioned Parligras-Jobava game. It soon turned nasty for White. Instead 9.h4 e5!? (MNb) along the lines of Ree-Donner, and also some games by Spartaco Sarno who plays this line brilliantly with Black, looks a very interesting idea; there is also 9...h5!? Black does need to resist better than in that Hall-Ghiacco game (9...Nb6?!).
7...b5 8.g4
Rushing with 8 Bh6 can get White into trouble as in Mola-Sarno (as MNb notes).
8.h4!? (MNb) has the subtle point of preventing Black's immediate counterplay with ...Qa5 and ...Be6, i.e. 8...Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6 10.Nd5 Qxd2 11.Nxe7+ Kh8 12.Bxd2 Re8 13.d5 and Black has big problems. With the pawn on g4 rather than h4, Black would have ...Nxe4! here (see below). In this position it seems insufficient.
However, 8 h4 also has a drawback: Black can hold up the kingside pawnstorm with 8...h5 (this must be played in conjunction with ...b5, not just ...Nbd7 and ...e5 as Lo Kim Lin played against MNb) e.g. 9.Kb1 Re8 10.Bg5 Qa5 11.a3 Nbd7 12.g4 Bao,Q (2376)-Sarno,S (2385)/Mallorca 2004/CBM 104 - a remarkable game by the way - and here one possibility is 12...b4 13.Na2 hxg4 with good play for Black. This was rather feeble play by White, who might try 9.Bh6 in accordance with MNb's game. But now Black's development displays its coiled spring: 9...b4 10.Nce2 Qa5 11.Kb1 Be6 12.Nc1 Nbd7 White no doubt has his birthright "plus equals" in this position, and I wouldn't fancy it against Topalov. But it looks totally playable to me (13 Nh3!? Nb6!?). I'd be curious to know the opinions of Sicilian Dragon players (and slayers).
8...Qa5 9.Kb1 Be6 10.a3?!
Here Thinius thought for a long time about 10.Nd5 but decided that the queen-exchange was no good to him. The tournament situation meant that he had to win this game, but I imagine in general 10 Nd5 is a difficult move for White to play having warmed up with Be3, f3 and 000... 10...Qxd2 and now 11.Nxe7+!? only appears once on my database, but could do with further investigation. (11.Nxf6+ Bxf6 12.Rxd2 Bc4!? as in Sveshnikov-Saricevic, is for sure a bit better for White, but I didn't mind going in for this. There has also been a nice game by Giaccio with 11...exf6 12.Rxd2 d5 which stakes Black's claim in the centre.) After 11 Nxe7+ a possible line is 11...Kh8 12.Bxd2 Re8 13.d5 Nxe4 14.Be1 Rxe7 15.dxe6 Nc5 16.exf7 d5 Again, perhaps some sort of edge for White, but does anyone have a different opinion on this line?
10.b3 b4 11.Na4 c5 12.g5 Nh5 13.dxc5 Nc6! is Yudasin-Anand (1991) - unclear at this stage but a vigorous win for Black. White's "Dragon-style" attack on the kingside has ground to an abrupt halt.
10...Qc7?!
Too tame. We both wondered about the line 10...b4 11.Na2!? Bxa2+ 12.Kxa2 c5 13.dxc5 Nc6 which I then kicked myself for not playing.
11.Bh6 a5?
A pawn "sacrifice". It was much better to take on h6 first (a surprisingly common theme in this line), so that the king doesn't get dragged to g7.
12.Bxg7 Kxg7 13.d5
Black is often pleased to see this move (producing a Sicilian structure at some cost of time to White), but here it is obviously strong.
13...Bd7
The problem is that  13...cxd5 14.g5 can't be met by ...b4 as usual because White takes on f6 with check.
14.g5 Nh5 15.dxc6 Nxc6 16.Bxb5 Rab8 17.a4 Rfc8 18.Nge2 Nb4 19.Bxd7 Qxd7 20.Nd4 Kg8 21.Ndb5 Qe6 22.Rhf1 Nf4! 23.Rf2 Qe5 24.h4 Rc4 and by now my compensation was beginning to feel plausible, though something horrible happened later (1-0). 

5...0-0 is risky indeed. But in my opinion risky for both sides, not just Black. There remains much to explore in the above lines  Smiley

Re JEHs note on 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 Nbd7 6 f4 Qb6, Avrukhs suggestion of 7 Qc1 (instead of 7 a3, Movsesian-Cekro) looks very good to me. 7d5 8 e5 Nh5 9 Nge2 or 8Ne4?! does look like computer chess, but what else does Black do? If the idea is 7c5 8 Nf3, I think Black should have played the Dragon in the first place! 5Qb6 6 Qc1 Nbd7 7 f4 might transpose. If Black wants to try an early queen move, 5Qa5!? might be the way.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #22 - 03/07/07 at 20:46:18
Post Tools
Quote:
MNb: Kasparov-Radjabov is a stomach-turning game for Black, but as you imply the early ...Nbd7 isn't necessary (and Radjabov did play a few strange looking moves on the queenside later). But I don't think White has done much damage to 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 c6 6 Bh6 Bxh6 7 Qxh6 Qa5 8 Bd3 c5 9 Nge2 cxd4 10 Nxd4 Nc6 for quite a while. For the brave, 5...0-0!? (6 Bh6?! e5, 6 f3 e5; 6 0-0-0! prevents ...e5) is also making a comeback.


This is stuff I know about. Should not be surprising, as I have played this for 25 years.
4.Be3 Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 6.Bh6 Bxh6 7.Qxh6 Qa5 and 8.Bd3 is too timid; 8.0-0-0 is the move, intending b5 9.e5! Safer is 8.o-o-o Be6, but I think White can maintain some advantage.
I know some have tried to rehabilitate 5...0-0. Don't play it. 6.0-0-0! (Black's statistics are not good after 6.f3 e5, but why should we allow it? Moreover there is 6.f3 c5) c6 (Nc6 7.f3 e5 8.Nge2 exd4 9.Nxd4 transposes to a line of the Philidor, while 8.d5 also is OK) 7.f3 b5 8.h4 (and not 8.g4?! or 8.Bh6?!) because of Be6 9.Kb1 Qa5 10.Nd5 (Judasin) at least +=. This is about the best Black can get.
So if Black wants to castle, 5...c6 6.Bh6 0-0 is the correct move order, as the stereotypal 7.f3 b5 8.0-0-0 Be6! 9.Kb1 Bxh6 10.Qxh6 Qa5! is good for Black, transposing to Mola-Sarno, Arvier 2003. White has some other options though.

Note that White almost lost a tempo in Hall,J (2450) - Giaccio,A (2350) La Coruna Open 1993 by playing Kb1 voluntarily. This move is not really necessary, as long Black does not play ...Be6 or ...Qa5.
Simple guy as I am, I don't understand Parligras' play against Jobava. My idea of x.f3 is to storm with h2-h4-h5 as soon as possible, not to "break" with e4-e5.

A light example of the way I handle this:

MNb - Lo Kim Lin,F [B07]
Lincoln Rapidtournament Paramaribo (3), 30.03.2003
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 (actually I played 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 g6 3.e4 Bg7 4.Be3, but that's a too heavy gamble) Lg7 5.f3 (imprecise; being this a rapid game I gambled a bit with the move order, hoping for) 0-0 6.Qd2 c6 7.0-0-0 Nbd7 8.h4 (why 8.Kb1 ?) h5 9.Bh6 (or 9.g4 immediately) e5 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.g4 hxg4 12.h5 Nxh5 13.fxg4 Pf4 14.Qh2 f5 15.Bc4+ Rf7 16.Bxg7 1-0
Black tried to imitate the KID-Smisch Variation, but it did not work.

Later edit: in addition to principled reasons I also have found a concrete objection to the profylactic Kb1. In that Hall-Giaccio game Black should have borrowed an idea from Ree-Donner, Zierikzee 1967: 9...e5! (iso 9...Nb6?!) 10.dxe5 dxe5 11.g4 (11.h5 Qe7 12.hxg6 fxg6 13.Bh6 Bxh6 14.Qxh6 and White cannot make progress) Qe7 12.h5 Nb6 13.hxg6 fxg6 14.g5 Nh5. With the king still on c1 and the knight still on d7 White has the decisive 14.Bxb5 cxb5 15.Qd5+. If Black has played ...Nb6 just in time, White has nothing.
« Last Edit: 03/08/07 at 00:16:46 by MNb »  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #21 - 03/07/07 at 20:18:18
Post Tools
Quote:
For the brave, 5...0-0!? (6 Bh6?! e5, 6 f3 e5; 6 0-0-0! prevents ...e5) is also making a comeback


Though Parligras-Jobava 2004 was heartening for Black,  I'd think twice after seeing a game like this:

Hall,J (2450) - Giaccio,A (2350) [B07]
La Coruna op La Coruna, 1993

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 Bg7 5.f3 c6 6.Qd2 0-0 7.0-0-0 b5 8.Kb1 Nbd7 9.h4 Nb6 10.Bh6 Be6 11.Bxg7 Kxg7 12.h5 b4 13.hxg6 bxc3 14.Qh6+ Kg8 15.g7 Re8 16.e5 Bf5 17.exf6 Nd5 18.Bd3 Bxd3 19.Rxd3 Nxf6 20.Ne2 Qa5 21.g4 cxb2 22.Ng3 1-0

and after a series of natural moves by both sides, Black is destroyed with White's Kingside still at home!

As an aside, after 1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Be3 c6 5. h3 Nbd7 6. f4 Qb6 7. Qc1
Fritz is convinced that 7. ...d5 is =, and then after 8. e5 Nh5 it wants to put its Knight on g7! it's still convinced this is =, so maybe there is hope for humanity or it's come up with a genius Knight fiancetto. Looking at this Nh5 does raise some interesting tactical points around White's weak dark squares at f4 and g3, e.g. Bf2 is met by Nxf4 as the Qc1 is overloaded. Also cf the Movsesian-Cekro game where Black missed 11. ...Bxf4! on the same theme.

But then you can't alway trust computers. The following is a line I've done a lot of homework on, and I found Fritz's suggestion after

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.f4 Bg7 5.Nf3 c5 6.Bb5+ Bd7 7.e5 Ng4 8.e6 Bxb5 9.exf7+ Kd7 10.Nxb5 Qa5+ 11.Nc3 cxd4 12.Nxd4 h5 13.h3 Nc6 14.Nde2 Nh6 15.Be3 Nf5 16.Bf2

... amusing. Now Black has tried a few different moves here, but no human has tried Fritz's bold suggestion of Ke6  Huh Shocked

Happy Pircing,

JEH

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James Vigus
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 07/30/06
Re: Pirc
Reply #20 - 03/07/07 at 11:40:14
Post Tools
Stigma, thanks again for all this information. Martin was commentating Kasimdzhanov-Svidler (I think: I'm writing this without my database to hand and will check again if you don't find this easily). Your 19...Nd7 looks plausible to me, though somehow I don't trust this for Black.

Further on 16...Bh6: 17 Be2?! Nc6 does indeed seem fine for Black, but probably more challenging is 17 Bxe7 Nxf1 (17...Bxf4!? 18 Bd3!? is a Fritz suggestion I only looked at in haste...) 18 Rxf1 Bxf4 19 Bxf8 Kxf8 20 Nxe5!? (winning a pawn with 20 Kd1 Bxd2 21 Kxd2 Nc6 22 Ng5 f5 23 Nxh7+ doesn't promise much) Bxe5 21 Rd8+ Ke7 22 Rg8: again, the focus on those sleeping queenside pieces. To me this looks nasty for Black, though the computer disagrees. I have written quite pessimistically about this whole 6...b6 line for Black, but really hope something will work around these critical 15th-16th moves!

MNb: Kasparov-Radjabov is a stomach-turning game for Black, but as you imply the early ...Nbd7 isn't necessary (and Radjabov did play a few strange looking moves on the queenside later). But I don't think White has done much damage to 4 Be3 Bg7 5 Qd2 c6 6 Bh6 Bxh6 7 Qxh6 Qa5 8 Bd3 c5 9 Nge2 cxd4 10 Nxd4 Nc6 for quite a while. For the brave, 5...0-0!? (6 Bh6?! e5, 6 f3 e5; 6 0-0-0! prevents ...e5) is also making a comeback.

Stigma: 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 Qb6!? 6 a3 Nbd7 7 Nf3 Bg7 8 Bc4 Qc7 9 Ba2 does look a sensible line to me. White often goes to some trouble to get the bishop to that diagonal in the Classical. But this is still playable for Black and might well throw White players off their normal course: to play 4 Be3 really well demands unusual flexibility, readiness to castle either side, to play f4, g4, or Nf3 as required. Id say that 5...Qb6 deserves some more outings after all...

Very good point about the transposition between these two problem lines. After 4 f4 Bg7 5 Nf3 0-0 6 Be3 c6 I have focused on 7 Bd3. Perhaps 7 h3!? reaching the Jansa line is an equally good option.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Stigma
God Member
*****
Offline


There is a crack in everything.

Posts: 3195
Joined: 11/07/06
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #19 - 03/07/07 at 03:12:23
Post Tools
James Vigus,
I wouldn't worry too much about missing Jansa as a source. He gives a repertoire against the Pirc based on 4...c6 5.h3 (which he takes credit for developing along with Sveshnikov) and 4...Bg7 5.Qd2 c6 7.Bh6, with only brief mention of many of Black's sidelines, although I really like his format with training questions in between the theory. If you consulted all the standard sources (and especially Erenburg's theory database in CBM 93, which I only discovered a few days ago) I doubt the Jansa book has much to add. What I gave in my post is literally all he has to say on ...Qb6-lines, and that is only with white committed to f4, via 5...Bg7 6.f4 Qb6.

After 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 Qb6 6.a3 (!) I really want to play 6...Nbd7 to meet 7.f4?! with e5! which Erenburg likes for Black (thanks again to JEH!)

[Event "BIH-chT"]
[Site "Neum"]
[Date "2002.06.04"]
[Round "4.3"]
[White "Movsesian, Sergei"]
[Black "Cekro, Ekrem"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B07"]
[WhiteElo "2624"]
[BlackElo "2419"]

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. Be3 c6 5. h3 Nbd7 6. f4 Qb6 7. a3 e5 8. Nf3 Bh6
9. g3 Nh5 10. Qc1 Nxg3 11. dxe5 Qd8 12. Rg1 Nxf1 13. Rxf1 dxe5 14. fxe5 Bg7 15.
Bh6 O-O 16. Bxg7 Kxg7 17. Qd2 Qe7 18. Qh2 a5 19. O-O-O a4 20. Rd4 Ra5 21. Rxa4
Rc5 22. Qg3 Nxe5 23. Nd4 Kh8 24. Nb3 Rc4 25. Ra8 Kg7 26. Qe3 Bxh3 27. Rxf8 Bxf1
28. Ra8 Qf6 29. Kb1 Ng4 30. Qg3 Ne5 31. Re8 Nf3 32. Qb8 Rxc3 33. bxc3 Bc4 34.
Rg8+ Kh6 35. Qf8+ Kg5 36. Qc5+ Ne5 37. Re8 Be6 38. Nd4 b5 39. Nxe6+ fxe6 40.
Rf8 Qg7 41. Qe3+ Kh4 42. Rf1 1-0

So White may try instead 7.Nf3 Bg7 and now 8.Bd3 Qc7 is similar to the line 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.Be3 c6 6.Qd2 Qa5!? where the Queen likewise drops back to c7 soon. If white tries e5 on move 7 or 8 Black just goes ...Nd5 and if White exchanges b2 is hanging again. But your idea here would be 8.Bc4 Qc7 (8...Nxe4 9.Bxf7+ again looks uncomfortable) 9.Ba2! (9.0-0 d5!? 10.exd5 Nb6) and maybe you could argue that the active bishop on a2 is an improvement on the classical Be2-lines?

In the Austrian 6.Be3 b6, I failed to find the Martin analysis you referred to; which game was he analysing? My computer seems to think that after 15...Bh6 16.Bxe7 Bxf4+ 17.Kb1 Re8 18.Bg5 Ne3 19.Rc5, 19...Nd7 improves on Martin, although Black will have to accept a worsening of his pawn structure (the e5-pawn recapturing on f4) in return for a lead in development. I need to look at these lines in much more detail when I find the time!

As an aside there is actually a significant transposition between my two "problem lines": If Black answers the Austrian 6.Be3 with c6 (played by Tseshkovsky and Morozevich) White can reply 7.h3!? and suddenly we're in one of Jansa's 4.Be3 c6 5.h3 main lines.

I'm really looking forward to that book now, the time really has come for a major Pirc theory update  Smiley
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #18 - 03/06/07 at 20:22:45
Post Tools
Disadvantage of 4...Bg7 is: White can play 5.Qd2 and 6.Bh6. See eg Kasparov-Radjabov, Moscow 2002. The move Nf3 and Nd7 were included; I think White should postpone Nf3 a bit, as sometimes f2-f3 is stronger.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #17 - 03/06/07 at 14:18:46
Post Tools
Quote:
However, I think 4Bg7 (instead of 4c6) is in good shape. I prefer to play 4Bg7 myself and it's also regaining rather more illustrious followers than me.


A couple of advantages of 4. ...Bg7 are

1. It doesn't commit Black's c file plan.
2. It can be reached via the Modern move order.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
James Vigus
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 77
Joined: 07/30/06
Re: Pirc
Reply #16 - 03/06/07 at 13:23:23
Post Tools
JEH and Stigma, thanks for some good ideas on a couple of really critical Pirc lines.

Some comments on Shirov-McNab, which does indeed seem the most important recent game for the Austrian with 6 Be3 b6:

A.Shirov (2709) - C.McNab (2456) [B09]
Gibraltar 01.02.2006
1.e4 g6 2.d4 d6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.f4 Nf6 5.Nf3 00 6.Be3 b6 7.Qd2  Bb7 8.e5 Ng4 9.000 c5 10.dxc5 bxc5 11.Bxc5 Qa5 12.Ba3 dxe5 13.Nd5 Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 Bxd5 15.Rxd5 Ne3

Black has various possible deviations before this, but none seem totally satisfactory.  In an update on this site a couple of years ago Andrew Martin analysed 15...Bh6 16.Bxe7 Bxf4+ 17.Kb1 Re8 18.Bg5 Ne3 19.Rc5 Bxg5 20.Nxg5 h6 21.Bb5! favouring White. Perhaps this isnt especially forcing, but in my book I've focused on 15e4(!) which does seem to lead to genuinely playable positions for Black, without actually attaining equality.

16.Rd2 Nxf1

16...Bh6 (JEH) I agree this could be a major improvement. But Black's undeveloped queenside still worries me, in a line like 17 Be2!? (rescuing this useful piece!) Bxf4 18 g3 Bh6 19 Nxe5 meeting 19...Nf5 with 20 Bf3, exploiting Black's queenside pieces. I need to set the computer on this for longer to decide whether 17...Nc6 is better, perhaps aiming for an improved version of that Svidler game. Any more thoughts on this?

17.Rxf1 Nc6 18.Nxe5 Nxe5 19.fxe5 Bh6 20.Bxe7 Rfb8 21.Rff2 Rb5 22.Bf6 Rd5 23.c4 Rc8 24.b3 Rc6 25.g4 Rxd2 26.Rxd2 Bxd2+ 27.Kxd2 Kf8 28.Kc3 Ra6 29.a4 Ke8 30.c5 Kd7 31.Kc4 Kc6 32.Be7 Ra5 33.g5 Ra6 34.Bd6 Ra5 35.Kb4 Ra6 36.h4 Kb7 37.Kb5 Rc6 38.b4 a6+ 39.Kc4 Rc8 40.Kd5 Re8 41.c6+ Kb6 42.Bc5+ Kc7 43.a5 Kb8 44.Bd6+ Ka7 45.Kc5 Re6 46.b5 axb5 47.Kxb5 Re8 48.c7 10

However, I agree that 6 Be3 Nbd7 (developing!) is a good choice for Black. It has probably been unjustly neglected in recent years ever since a brilliant win by Anand drew everyones attention to 6b6.

The line 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Be3 c6 5 h3 has been doing well for White. In the game Svidler-Ivanchuk that Jonathan Rowson analysed in a recent update on this site, the Archbishop Attack claimed its first top-level victim after 5Bg7 6 g4 though this game wasnt totally clear (13h6!) and I think g4 is stronger against 5Nbd7. The Archbishop struck again at Hastings in Williams-Gagunashvili: Gagunashvili is a brilliant exponent of the Pirc but appeared totally taken aback by Whites g4. So it makes sense for Black should look for a means of disruption.
Im afraid I didnt consult Jansas Dynamic Chess Strategy (thanks for the recommendation, Stigma), and therefore may have dismissed 5Qb6!? too cheaply. I just thought that 6 a3 leaves Blacks queen oddly placed, e.g. 6...Bg7 7 Nf3 and now Black must worry about e5. If 7...Qc7, White doesn't have to rush e5 but could try 8 Bc4 making use of the move a3 to tuck the bishop away. (8...Nxe4?! 9 Bxf7+) I suppose Black doesn't have to play 6...Bg7, but it doesn't make sense to delay this move forever. Does Jansa have much on this? (A caveat - I haven't checked this with an engine.)

However, I think 4Bg7 (instead of 4c6) is in good shape. I prefer to play 4Bg7 myself and it's also regaining rather more illustrious followers than me.

I also agree with some of the comments on this thread about the pleasantly non-theoretical nature of the Pirc. Whenever I worry that Pirc theory might be getting out of hand, along comes Michael Gurevich, ignoring all theoretical verdicts and creating genial chaos with Black. This very recent game went wrong in the end, but I like the beginning:

Collas,S (2389) - Gurevich,M (2635) [B08]
4th ch-Mediterranean Cannes FRA (5), 21.02.2007
1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.Nc3 g6 4.Nf3 Bg7 5.h3 a6 6.Bd3 00 7.Be3 Nc6 8.Qd2 e5 9.dxe5 Nxe5 10.Nxe5 dxe5 11.000 Be6 12.h4 Ng4 13.h5 Nxe3 14.Qxe3 Qf6 15.Kb1 Rfd8 16.hxg6 hxg6 17.f3 Rd6 18.g3 b5 19.Rd2 Rad8 20.Rdh2 c5 21.Rh7 c4 22.Be2 Rd4 23.Kc1 b4 24.Nd1 c3 25.b3 a5 26.Nf2 Rd2 27.Bb5 R8d4 28.Nd3 Kf8 29.f4 Bg4 30.fxe5 Qxe5 31.Rxg7 Kxg7 32.Qh6+ Kg8 33.Bc4 Qf6 34.e5 Qg7 35.Qe3 Rxc4 36.bxc4 g5 37.c5 Qh6 38.Rf1 Be2 39.e6 fxe6 40.c6 Bxf1 41.c7 Rxc2+ 42.Kxc2 Bxd3+ 43.Qxd3 Qh2+ 44.Kb3 Qb2+ 45.Kc4 Qxa2+ 46.Kc5 Qf2+ 47.Kc6 Qf8 48.Qd8 c2 49.Qxf8+ Kxf8 50.c8Q+ 10

5a6!? seemed to confuse White a little 6 Bd3 determines the position of this bishop a bit too early and I think Gurevichs play confirms that Nc6 and e5 is a good plan against Whites h3-system. Around move 24 Blacks position looks nice (arent those white rooks a bit redundant on the h-file?), but I suppose time-trouble played its part.

Long live the Pirc  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Antillian
God Member
*****
Offline


Brilliance without dazzle!

Posts: 1756
Joined: 01/05/03
Gender: Male
Re: Pirc
Reply #15 - 03/02/07 at 14:29:54
Post Tools
TopNotch made an interesting comment in another thread that certain types of attacking players have great diffculty playing against the Pirc. He never elaborated, but I could only thing I could think of was certain attacking players prefer wide open positions which you don't really get in the Pirc. Food for thought.
  

"Breakthrough results come about by a series of good decisions, diligently executed and accumulated one on top of another." Jim Collins --- Good to Great
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo