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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3? (Read 31067 times)
ArKheiN
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #17 - 12/11/07 at 10:15:03
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I think the best White can reach against the Schliemann, is a small advantage (that might disappear after good moves by Black.), after 4.d3 and 4.Nc3. Iam totally aware of the line that Markovich gives as a refutation, and it's indeed a strong line for White, Black can only hope to draw an ending a pawn down, but even here, I think Black can manage to draw, and Iam ready to play it on corr to demonstrate that.

Against 4.d3, things are not easy too, I have somes deep analysis on it but 4..fxe4 and 5..Nf6 followed by 6..Bc5 seems totally playable for me (but Iam ready to say that White might have a slight advantage here too.
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #16 - 12/11/07 at 08:04:14
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Markovich is surely one of the "quality driven" writers here

Yes your right! I found many very interesting posts from him. So why not simply talk about 4.d3 ? - awaiting an argument about f-file counterplay and some lines that show that 4.d3 is maybe harmless - that would be talking about the facts!
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #15 - 12/11/07 at 07:54:02
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Matemax wrote on 12/11/07 at 07:47:17:
Quote:
I'm not going to debate this line with you


well its a discussion about 4.d3 here - so what? 4.Nc3 is a strong move - no question - but thats not the theme!

Dear Markovich you are using "killer arguments"... well - I try my "killer argument" now: To become a god member its not quality but quantity that counts  Angry


Markovich is surely one of the "quality driven" writers here. He has posted more analysis here than anyone else. (MNb excepted perhaps.)
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #14 - 12/11/07 at 07:47:17
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Quote:
I'm not going to debate this line with you


well its a discussion about 4.d3 here - so what? 4.Nc3 is a strong move - no question - but thats not the theme!

Dear Markovich you are using "killer arguments"... well - I try my "killer argument" now: To become a god member its not quality but quantity that counts  Angry
  
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Markovich
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #13 - 12/10/07 at 20:07:27
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Alias wrote on 12/09/07 at 08:37:54:
Markovich,

If you haven't seen the sections in the books by Greet or Kaufman or the NiC yb article, you can have a look at this column:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/rock06.pdf

Please indicate where you find the f-file counterplay.


I'm not going to debate this line with you, because I've stopped playing it.  I just gave you my understanding of 3-4 years ago, when I realized that 4.Nc3! refuted the Schliemann. 

It's a game of chess, you know?  Perhaps Greet and Kaufman and whoever have discovered Absolute Truth, perhaps they haven't.  But in either case, I would put my trust in 4.Nc3!
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #12 - 12/09/07 at 20:33:25
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If 4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Qe2/7.Qd3 indeed is good for White - I don't know, never have looked at it - then 4.d3 Nf6 5.0-0 is good for White as well.
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #11 - 12/09/07 at 08:37:54
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Markovich,

If you haven't seen the sections in the books by Greet or Kaufman or the NiC yb article, you can have a look at this column:

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/rock06.pdf

Please indicate where you find the f-file counterplay.
  
Don't check me with no lightweight stuff.
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #10 - 12/05/07 at 14:57:14
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Matemax wrote on 12/04/07 at 08:12:47:
Shocked Lets start with some thoughts I have about the position after 4.d3:

Black is probably forced to take on e4: 4...fe4, cause after 4...Nf6 white may consider 5.ef5 and after 4...d6 the bishop on f8 is bad. After taking on e4 we have the starting position of the ruy lopez without the white d-pawn and the black f-pawn - which  I think is very much in whites favour.

Perhaps we can try an analytical tree after 4.d3 - I propose

A - Variations without fe4 (Nf6, d6, etc)
B - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to e7
C - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white moves queen to c4 (via d3 or e2)
D - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white plays early 0-0 (Macieja-Radjabov, 2007)

I am curious about the opinions of the chess community here...


Oh, I suppose I disagree.  When I was playing this defense (before I discovered that 4.Nc3 just refutes it), versus 4.d3 I favored 4...fxe4 4.dxe4 Nf6 and soon ...Bc5, believing that Black was not much worse there.  It's a game of chess, isn't it?  Has something happened to cast a cloud on Black's game there?  I'm not aware of it.

I certainly do not agree that the absence of White's d- and Black's f-pawn is particularly advantageous for White.  The f-file will provide eventual counterplay, or if ...gxf becomes necessary, the g-file.

But it's moot because 4.Nc3! is so strong.
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #9 - 12/05/07 at 08:27:30
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I agree with Willempie, that this is Black's best chance. See the game Banas-Ivanovic, Stip 1979, 14...gxf5!? 15.gxf5 Ne8

VARIATION A:
Banas-Ivanovic, 1979:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.O-O O-O 7.Be3 Nd4 8.c3 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Be7 10.Nd2 c6 11.Ba4 d5 12.d4 e4 13.Qh3 g6 14.g4 h5?! (better is: 14...gf5!? as indicated by MNb and given in Yudasin/Soloviev 1994)

Tseitlin proposes: 10.g4! c6 11.Ba4 d5 12.Nd2

Quote:
Imo after 5.0-0 Black should play fxe4 6.dxe4 Bc5

VARIATION D:
this is moveordering to Macieja-Radjabov, 2007:

1.e4  e5  2.Nf3  Nc6  3.Bb5  f5  4.d3 fxe4 5.dxe4 Nf6 6.0-0 Bc5 7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.Nxe5 0-0 9.Bg5 Qe8 10.Bxf6 Rxf6 11.Nd3 Bd4 12.c3 Bb6 13.Nd2 d6 14.c4 Qg6?! (Grivas)

( Grivas comments: A new move but not a satisfactory one in my opinion. 14...Rh6 15.Re1 (15.c5 Bxc5 16.Nxc5 Qe5 17.Nf3 Qxc5 ) 15...Qe7 16.Nf1 Qg5 17.Qd2 Qh5 was seen in Aginian,N-Shukurova,M/Elista 1998.)


Thin air for black?
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #8 - 12/04/07 at 20:55:05
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Matemax wrote on 12/04/07 at 08:12:47:
A - Variations without fe4 (Nf6, d6, etc)
B - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to e7
C - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white moves queen to c4 (via d3 or e2)
D - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white plays early 0-0 (Macieja-Radjabov, 2007)

I am curious about the opinions of the chess community here...


A) I agree with Willempie, that this is Black's best chance. See the game Banas-Ivanovic, Stip 1979, 14...gxf5!? 15.gxf5 Ne8. See also the short debate I had with TopNotch in the "Radjabovs Jaenisch" thread. Imo after 5.0-0 Black should play fxe4 6.dxe4 Bc5. As White already has castled his options are limited compared to 4...fxe4 immediately.
B) Brrr, too passive.
C) This is imo good for White.
D) So Macieja-Radjabov is still critical. Grivas suggests at

http://www.chessbase.com/news/2007/games/grivas04.htm

14...Rh6 and 13...Ba6 as improvements for Black.
I propose to focus on D and on A.
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #7 - 12/04/07 at 09:59:58
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after 7...c6 I clearly have to move Be2 or Ba4  Smiley
7...0-0 8.dc5 does not change much
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #6 - 12/04/07 at 09:28:25
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Matemax wrote on 12/04/07 at 09:04:51:
Willempie wrote on 12/04/07 at 08:26:51:
In your variation A I would put most effort on 4..Nf6 with 5..Bc5 (or vice versa). Imo it is the line that comes closest to equalising (eg also in Greet's book).


I just have an older book ((Yudasin/Soloviev - 1994 ("when I was young  Roll Eyes") - which features the following variation:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 Nxe4 8.dxc5 and claiming white advantage

What does Greet say to this?

I have to check when I am at home, but iirc Greet recommends 6.exf5. In your line I am a bit suspicious about move 7. I think 7..c6 (maybe even 7..0-0) is a better move. Eg 7..c6 8.dxe5 Nxe4 9.Bc4 Nxf2 (should be good Grin) 10.Rxf2 Qh4-+
Ok move 10 should prolly be easy to improve for white, but I still think I would rather be black.
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #5 - 12/04/07 at 09:04:51
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Willempie wrote on 12/04/07 at 08:26:51:
In your variation A I would put most effort on 4..Nf6 with 5..Bc5 (or vice versa). Imo it is the line that comes closest to equalising (eg also in Greet's book).


I just have an older book ((Yudasin/Soloviev - 1994 ("when I was young  Roll Eyes") - which features the following variation:
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.d3 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5 6.Nxe5 Nxe5 7.d4 Nxe4 8.dxc5 and claiming white advantage

What does Greet say to this?
  
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #4 - 12/04/07 at 08:26:51
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In your variation A I would put most effort on 4..Nf6 with 5..Bc5 (or vice versa). Imo it is the line that comes closest to equalising (eg also in Greet's book).
  
If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Refuting Jaenisch with 4.d3?
Reply #3 - 12/04/07 at 08:12:47
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Shocked Lets start with some thoughts I have about the position after 4.d3:

Black is probably forced to take on e4: 4...fe4, cause after 4...Nf6 white may consider 5.ef5 and after 4...d6 the bishop on f8 is bad. After taking on e4 we have the starting position of the ruy lopez without the white d-pawn and the black f-pawn - which  I think is very much in whites favour.

Perhaps we can try an analytical tree after 4.d3 - I propose

A - Variations without fe4 (Nf6, d6, etc)
B - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to e7
C - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white moves queen to c4 (via d3 or e2)
D - Taking on e4 - blacks bishop goes to c5, white plays early 0-0 (Macieja-Radjabov, 2007)

I am curious about the opinions of the chess community here...
  
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