swjediknight; I never stated it (3. ...f5) was the best move in that position, only that is it is one among several that lead to Black's better position that can be achieved if White plays the BGD gambit against a strong player that has done some homework.

I'm out for reasons expressed in my "clavius" post.

Good luck and good chess!

The "true" gambit Staunton (1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5) is probably better than the 4.f3 Staunton. The position for Black tend to become strange here and I really like White in the Timoschenko system. I don't know if the dutch player really like theses positions as Black, but me, I wouldn't.

Well, if you don't see a pawns' worth of compensation in those positions, it doesn't reflect very well upon the Staunton Gambit, which can also give rise to the same positions.

drkodos wrote on 02/07/09 at 22:17:32:



If you tire of an analytical exchange and verbal exchange why don't the two of you play a forum game here?  You'll have plenty of time to contemplate your moves and show that White doesn't have enough compensation.  Of course one game, no matter the time control, won't be the final word but it's a start.

After 3...f5 4.Bg5, Fritz's openings book gives 4...g6, whereupon 5.Qd2 with 0-0-0 to follow should give nice compensation for White.

If instead 4...a6 as suggested above, 5.f3 Nf6 6.fxe4 Nxe4 7.Nxe4 fxe4, and now for example 8.Bc4 Nc6 9.c3 and castling on either side.  White has a lead in development and Black has doubled and isolated e-pawns.  Looks like full compensation to me.

The alternative of 6...fxe4 transposes to the Staunton Gambit, a position alternatively reached via 1.d4 f5 2.e4 fxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.f3 d5 5.fxe4 dxe4 6.Bg5 a6.  I seriously doubt that 6...a6 is the best move in that position.  White continues with Bc4 and Nge2 and has fair compensation for the pawn.

Instead perhaps 4...Nf6 5.f3 Nc6, when White should continue with 6.d5, and again a series of exchanges on e4 are likely to cause a transposition to the Staunton Gambit: 1.d4 f5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nc6 5.f3 d5 6.fxe4 etc.

If the best Black has against the BDG is to transpose to the Staunton Gambit- a line which is sound enough, if insufficient for advantage against best play- then the BDG is looking pretty healthy.   And I haven't even touched upon 4.Bf4 yet.  Thus I seriously doubt that 3...f5 is Black's best move.

@drkodos: Firstly I think 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.f3 e5! 5.dxe5 Qxd1+ 6.Kxd1 is around equal, but yes, that is very boring for White, and White should be happy with a draw after a boring game where skill is needed to keep the balance in an equal material game. But I have found a page about 3 games with 3..f5 4.Bf4!?, a respectable move, probably one of the best move here. http://bdgpages.blogspot.com/2008/10/from-dutch-to-bdg.html

Ok now let's talk point by point about that:

Quote:


- What is proved to be worse for White, the BDG in general or that 3..f5 line of the BDG?

- With the BDG, you may learn how to put pressure on Black with your free pieces, free diagonals and free files. You  may learn mating patterns and how to master activ pieces play against material. I think if you lost position with the BDG, it's because you mishandled that, that's not the fault of the BDG.

- Everyone doesn't like to play in a gambit style, I can understand that. If you like to give a pawn to have some pressure for that, the BDG should be ok. But you shouldn't get miserables positions with the BDG if you played that well. 

Now about the position: 1.d4 d5 2.e4 dxe4 3.Nc3 f5 4.Bg5 a6 5.f3 Nf6, ok you didn't want to take that pawn on f3, so you can't have a permanent pawn up by now, because the point of playing f3 is to take, or to be took. So I don't play 6.Qd2 now but 6.fxe4, and now after 6..Nxe4 7.Nxe4 fxe4 or 6..fxe4, what do I see? I see a weak e4-pawn and light squares weakness. The e4 pawn seems maybe annoying for you because White's knight can't go on f3 but that not a big problem. It will go to e2-g3 and the e4 pawn will fall sooner or later, so the material problem shouldn't exist. And White has none activity problem too. Black's pawn structure tell us that the bishop f8 will go on g7, that's nice for me because my Bg5 is already nicely placed, and I will play Qd2 and 0-0-0 with attacking plans on the kingside. The only thing I don't know yet is where I will put my f1 bishop, it depends how the game will continue. If I can it will go on c4, to profit of your light squares weakness. So, White is clearly alive, not winning, that sure, but not worse for me. It's a dynamical equality, and if White wins back the e4 pawn (I don't see how it could survive the entire game) in good conditions, Black may even be worse.

When you play a gambit, you shouldn't be afraid about the pawn down, you should learn how to use your dynamical advantage, playing gambits is a good teacher to learn the balance activity/material. So, only you will know if the BDG or gambit style is for you or not. But if you get bad positions with the BDG, it's because you mishandle it, the BDG is good enough to keep a dynamical equality or more in most cases!

Hi Kylemeister,

Thanks for the reply, not at a board at present but will check and reply accordingly.

My initial thought though is that perhaps exf3 is not necessary leaving it a bit awkward developing the knight.

Regards,
Nelson.

SWJediknight wrote on 02/04/09 at 00:51:46:


Please let me see some compensation after a few more moves because I'm personally struggling with this one!