(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. d4 d5 2. c4 › QGD Intro › The Tarrasch in Black and White
(Moderators: proustiskeen, TN)
‹ Previous Topic | No Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 43
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 50987 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #252 - 05/26/10 at 12:11:12
Post Tools
For that matter, 6.Bg5 is an interesting idea.  It was actually advocated in one of Keene's repertoire books back in the days when Kasparov was making the main lines of the Tarrasch look good.  Even then though, Keene's stance was over the top.  I mean, as Botvinnik said, if the Tarrasch is good, the Queen's Gambit is not good.  Unthinkable!
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #251 - 05/26/10 at 08:42:42
Post Tools
TN wrote on 05/25/10 at 13:40:13:
What if, instead of 7.Qd5, White plays 7.Bg5 instead, intending 7...Nf6 8.e3 with an improved Tarrasch for White? 7...Qb6 8.e3 Qb2 9.Nd5 is favourable for White, but my intuition tells me Black can improve on this, possibly with 7...Nge7 (with ...f6 ideas later) or 7...Qb6 8.e3 Nge7/Be6.


Well, of course 7 Bg5 is playable but surely less critical than the capture of the d5 pawn. Black seems OK after 7...f6 (seemingly best) although the game can become quite sharp if Black follows up with ...d4. 

By the way, 7...f6 8 Qxd5 is also interesting, but I think Black is more than OK after 8...Qxd5 9 Nxd5 fxg5 10 Nc7+ Kf7 11 Nxa8 Bb4+.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1429
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #250 - 05/26/10 at 08:22:25
Post Tools
I'm the first to complain about the use of all the relevant sources. I believe that every new book has to be ahead of the theory and not behind it. It seems that this 6.dxc5 variation we are discusing is an example of the "new theory" this smalli book will offer.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #249 - 05/26/10 at 04:02:20
Post Tools
Ametanoitos wrote on 05/26/10 at 00:12:13:
Ok people, stop killing Black!  Grin Don't forget that i am writing a book from Black's side and i asked for a help FOR BLACK! Seriously now, i will contact some GM friends with some experience on the Tarrasch but i'm not to confident that when i reach them they will provide a good solution to the problem.


When writing a repertoire book, it's important to look for improvements for both sides, Avrukh's GM Repertoire being a good example of this. If people tell you about improvements for White on standard theory, you will know the critical lines to examine and where you need to find improvements for Black. 

One other thing: a number of reviewers become annoyed if the bibliography is either not present or small, so make sure you use and mention as many sources as possible. 

Once again, best of luck with the project Smiley
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1429
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #248 - 05/26/10 at 00:12:13
Post Tools
Ok people, stop killing Black!  Grin Don't forget that i am writing a book from Black's side and i asked for a help FOR BLACK! Seriously now, i will contact some GM friends with some experience on the Tarrasch but i'm not to confident that when i reach them they will provide a good solution to the problem.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TN
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #247 - 05/25/10 at 13:40:13
Post Tools
What if, instead of 7.Qd5, White plays 7.Bg5 instead, intending 7...Nf6 8.e3 with an improved Tarrasch for White? 7...Qb6 8.e3 Qb2 9.Nd5 is favourable for White, but my intuition tells me Black can improve on this, possibly with 7...Nge7 (with ...f6 ideas later) or 7...Qb6 8.e3 Nge7/Be6.
  
All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #246 - 05/25/10 at 13:32:11
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/24/10 at 20:32:53:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.e3 Be6 9. Qd1 possibly 9...Nf6 is more flexible than 9...Rd8. Black is "only" one pawn down, with a development edge, so some comp.; whether anything more than practical comp. is open to question.


I agree, and 9.Qd1 is probably how I would play as White.  It looks to me like one of those many situations where someone has about half a pawn's worth of compensation for a pawn. 

I'm suspicious of 9.Qg5 even with 10.Bd2, though as you point out, Black has to solve some problems there.

  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #245 - 05/24/10 at 20:32:53
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/24/10 at 15:43:10:
Paddy wrote on 05/22/10 at 10:50:31:
Markovich wrote on 05/22/10 at 02:24:34:
Paddy wrote on 05/20/10 at 12:16:39:
Ametanoitos wrote on 05/20/10 at 09:45:51:
I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game


I agree with your last statement!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.e3 Be6 9. Qg5 Nge7 10. Qxg7 O-O-O 11. a3 Nf5 12. Qg5 Rhe8 you propose 13. Ne4, however, I suggest that Black can maintain some momentum with 13...Bb4+.

My engine suggests instead 13...Rg8 14 Qf4 Rg4 15 Qxg4 Nxe3 but I don't believe it - surely White gets too much wood for the queen and will eventually untangle.


Instead of 10.Qxg7, what about 10.Bd2?


Does White have anything better than a draw by repetition after 10 Bd2 Qxb2 11 Rb1 Qc2 ?



Doesn't White have 12.Qxc5?  What am I missing?  Also, what's your opinion of 9.Qd1, which I brought up before without attracting anyone's reply?  I checked it with silicon and after 9...Rd8 10.Bd2, Black doesn't have 10...Qxb2 because of 11.Rb1 Qa6 12.Rxb2, when 12...Bb6 fails to 13.Bb5.


Sorry Mark, I messed up the move numbering. OK, I'll try again: after 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.e3 Be6 9. Qd1 possibly 9...Nf6 is more flexible than 9...Rd8. Black is "only" one pawn down, with a development edge, so some comp.; whether anything more than practical comp. is open to question.

After 9.Qg5 Nge7 10.Qxg7 0-0-0 11. Bd2 Qxb2 12. Rb1 Qc2 13. Rc1 Qb2 looks like a draw.

But after 9.Qg5 Nge7 your 10.Bd2 sets up the threat of Na4, so Black must act. Black might be able to play 10...Qxb2 answering 11. Rb1 with 11...Qa3 (Qc2 loses here, as you pointed out.) although then White has at least three dangerous tries: taking on b7, g7 or playing Nb5; anyone of these could bust Black, so some work is needed.

(Apologies if I've messed up again - I'm doing this in my head away from my main PC.)
« Last Edit: 05/24/10 at 22:51:04 by Paddy »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #244 - 05/24/10 at 15:43:10
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/22/10 at 10:50:31:
Markovich wrote on 05/22/10 at 02:24:34:
Paddy wrote on 05/20/10 at 12:16:39:
Ametanoitos wrote on 05/20/10 at 09:45:51:
I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game


I agree with your last statement!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.
e3 Be6 9. Qg5 Nge7 10. Qxg7 O-O-O 11. a3 Nf5 12. Qg5 Rhe8 you propose 13. Ne4, however, I suggest that Black can maintain some momentum with 13...Bb4+.

My engine suggests instead 13...Rg8 14 Qf4 Rg4 15 Qxg4 Nxe3 but I don't believe it - surely White gets too much wood for the queen and will eventually untangle.


Instead of 10.Qxg7, what about 10.Bd2?


Does White have anything better than a draw by repetition after 10 Bd2 Qxb2 11 Rb1 Qc2 ?



Doesn't White have 12.Qxc5?  What am I missing?  Also, what's your opinion of 9.Qd1, which I brought up before without attracting anyone's reply?  I checked it with silicon and after 9...Rd8 10.Bd2, Black doesn't have 10...Qxb2 because of 11.Rb1 Qa6 12.Rxb2, when 12...Bb6 fails to 13.Bb5.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #243 - 05/22/10 at 10:50:31
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/22/10 at 02:24:34:
Paddy wrote on 05/20/10 at 12:16:39:
Ametanoitos wrote on 05/20/10 at 09:45:51:
I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game


I agree with your last statement!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.
e3 Be6 9. Qg5 Nge7 10. Qxg7 O-O-O 11. a3 Nf5 12. Qg5 Rhe8 you propose 13. Ne4, however, I suggest that Black can maintain some momentum with 13...Bb4+.

My engine suggests instead 13...Rg8 14 Qf4 Rg4 15 Qxg4 Nxe3 but I don't believe it - surely White gets too much wood for the queen and will eventually untangle.


Instead of 10.Qxg7, what about 10.Bd2?


Does White have anything better than a draw by repetition after 10 Bd2 Qxb2 11 Rb1 Qc2 ?

Mark, I share your suspicions that White somehow must have a path a stable advantage against 6...Bxc5 but, so far at least, it is not proving easy to find that path.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #242 - 05/22/10 at 02:24:34
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 05/20/10 at 12:16:39:
Ametanoitos wrote on 05/20/10 at 09:45:51:
I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game


I agree with your last statement!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.
e3 Be6 9. Qg5 Nge7 10. Qxg7 O-O-O 11. a3 Nf5 12. Qg5 Rhe8 you propose 13. Ne4, however, I suggest that Black can maintain some momentum with 13...Bb4+.

My engine suggests instead 13...Rg8 14 Qf4 Rg4 15 Qxg4 Nxe3 but I don't believe it - surely White gets too much wood for the queen and will eventually untangle.


Instead of 10.Qxg7, what about 10.Bd2?
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10777
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #241 - 05/21/10 at 09:59:36
Post Tools
Vandros wrote on 05/21/10 at 07:07:20:
The thread itself is very interesting, though a bit chaotic; I think it's time for a new book with a clear structure.... Smiley


Like Ametanoitos is writing, alas in Greek.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #240 - 05/21/10 at 09:12:49
Post Tools
Vandros wrote on 05/21/10 at 07:07:20:
@Paddy, thanks for the reminder, it's difficult to remember all the lines that were discussed.

The thread itself is very interesting, though a bit chaotic; I think it's time for a new book with a clear structure.... Smiley


I cannot disagree!  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Vandros
Junior Member
**
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 71
Joined: 07/18/09
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #239 - 05/21/10 at 07:07:20
Post Tools
@Paddy, thanks for the reminder, it's difficult to remember all the lines that were discussed.

The thread itself is very interesting, though a bit chaotic; I think it's time for a new book with a clear structure.... Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 965
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #238 - 05/20/10 at 19:14:57
Post Tools
Vandros wrote on 05/20/10 at 17:47:25:
The variation with 6...Bxc5 is rather unusual.
The old "masters" played 6...d4 7.Na4 b5!? which is a messy variation.


Thank you - we are aware of this possibility - please see previous posts in this thread.  Wink

Actually the "old masters" (are Tarrasch and Rubinstein old enough?) played 7...Bxc5 8 Nxc5 Qa5+, which has also been analysed in some detail in this thread. 

It is because of dissatisfaction with these two lines that the alternatives 6...Bxc5, 6..Nf6 and 6...Be6 need to be considered.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 25 26 [27] 28 29 ... 43
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | No Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2026. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge