Ametanoitos wrote on 02/25/10 at 16:56:09:


Is the immediate 16...Rc4 really so good after 17. h3? I'm not so sure, because 17...Bd7 tranposes to 16. h3 Bd7 17. Be3 Rc4, which looks quite good for white after 18. Nc2. Black's alternatives to 17...Bd7 all have problems as well, which probably explains why even in that move order engines prefer Bd7. (17...Rb4 looks silly after 18. Qc2 followed by b3 when the Rb4 AND Nb6 both look silly because of a single pawn).

My immediate impression is that 16. Be3 Nc4 (and continuing similarly to 16. h3 Bd7 17. Be3 Nc4) may be better as a try for black, but then white has 17. Qxb7, where if the computer can be trusted white should emerge slightly better.

If 16...Rc4 is really supposed to be the correct answer to 16. Be3, then I'm really confident in white's chances after 17. h3.

I'm still looking at the other stuff, too. Long lines of analysis always need careful checking.

motörhead wrote on 02/24/10 at 22:51:23:


Actually, this move order question matters since, if White can reach the main lines of the Tarrasch with 4.Nf3, he avoids the Hennig-Scharra.  Of course, as you will know, White has to be willing to play a Semi-Tarrasch, and also to play against 4...cxd4.  The latter perhaps is something of a challenge; I'm not sure.

motörhead wrote on 02/24/10 at 23:15:32:


Don't bother in this. We discovered the solution. First of all 18...Ne5 19.Qd4? Bxh3 is a nice trick. And after 18...Ne4 19.Qe2 Bf5 20.Nb5 Ne5! is more simple 21.Ned4 Bg6! and the light squares are a problem for White.

Another thing that bothers me is in the Petrosian-Spassky game after 14.Re1 Qd7 isn't 15.Nc5 a strong move? I can btpass the problem by playing 14...Rc8 first and after 15.Bc5 Qd7 and reach by transposition the game but Spassky repeated this twice and 15.Nc5 is preety obvious. I think that 15...Bxc5 16.Bxc5 Rac8 17.Qa4!? Bh3 18.Bh1 Red8 is logical but i don't know if Black is equal here.

As for Gligoric's 14.Bd4 i found a much simpler solution after 14...Ne4 15.e3 Bb4 16.Na4 Qd7! Now:

After 17.Nac5 Bxc5 18.Bxc5 Bh3! or 18.Nxc5 Nxc5 19.Bxc5 Rad8 and Bh3 next

After 17.Bc5 Bh3 18.Bxh3 Qxh3 and the threat ...Re5 is deadly. I'll llok at Bpaulsen's idea (which looks good) later...

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 02/24/10 at 21:38:59:


No, it's just a matter of taste and the way you take to the pot.

Amentanoitos brings up a good point about earlier divergences  by white, but they're mostly harmless.

12. Rc1 Qd7 with 13...Bh3 to follow eliminates an important piece for one of black's worst. It's a resource that black simply doesn't have in the ...Re8 variations. It's pretty much a dream scenario for black, hence white's focus on Nb3/Qa4. In a way the reduction of quality 12th moves may speak better of the qualities of 11...Bg4 than anything else, since white certainly does not lack good options after 11...Re8.

Aside from that, currently my attention is on 17. Be3 in the line I was looking at earlier (instead of 17. Kh2, or 17. Bf4). It's caught my attention because it essentially removes any incentive from the ...Rc4 idea, and it's not so clear that 17...Nc4 18. Bf4 is actually a gain for black since it removes a defender of the Pd5.

The computer's top line is 17...Bc5 18. Nc2 Qe7 19. Bd4, and I personally prefer white's chances (white essentially gained a tempo over the scheme where white tries Bf4-e5-d4 instead accomplishing it with just Be3-d4). This is obviously unenergetic for black, so 17...Nc4 18. Bf4 is likely the critical position, and the most logical attempt to make use of white's "misplacement" of the bishop.

17...Nc4 18. Bf4 Qa5 (black, I guess, could try to repeat the position with Na5 if that sort of thing were okay with him, but 19. Qc2 and all that's going on is white is improving his position - it can be mentioned that with something like 18...Nb6 black would be a full tempo down on the 17. Bf4 variation, which has to count for something - obviously there's other possibilities too at this point) 19. Rd3 (this resource is only available due to the fact black's Nc4 isn't on c6 like usual) (19. Qxb7 fizzles out to rough equality after 19...Nxb2) b6 (19...Qb4 is also possible, but 20. Nxd5 may suffice for a small edge - there are other tries too. Once again if black willingly plays ...Nb6 then he's essentially lost a tempo on other lines, even with the insertion of ...Qa5, which probably isn't ideal ) 20. Ndb5, and here one chaotic variation begins with 20...g5 (20...Bxb5 21. Nxb5 should be safely +=) 21. Nc7 gxf4 22. N7xd5 Nxd5 23. Rxd5 Bc5 24. Rxd7 fxg3 25. Nd5 and white's got great compensation for the pawn.

It's food for thought at any rate, since only 17. Kh2, and 17.  Bf4 were treated so far. The look is just preliminary, so it's unknown whether there's earlier (and better) options for each side.

So far I like what I see, but that may just be my preferences speaking.

Already I have a pretty basic question:

I always played 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cd5 and from what I can tell, that's still the main move order.

Yet here, the main move order under discussion is 4.Nf3 and 5.cd5.

Is there any special reason to prefer this over the more common move order?

TonyRo wrote on 02/24/10 at 21:02:26:


I share your judgement of the position, you reached there. To quote some theory:
From my one and only standard source I have 13.Nxc6! bxc6 14.Na4 Rfe8 15.Bc5! Bg4 16.Bf3?! Vukic - Cvitan, Yugoslavia ch 1981. Keilhack gives 16.f3! and compares this position with a classical one from Rubinstein - Salve, Karlsbad 1911 - a strategical masterpiece indeed. The idea there was to suffocate all black attempts with firm grip on the dark squares and the rook swing Rf1-f2-d2/c2 to come after proper preparation.

The theory rates 11...Be6?! second class only.

cheese