ChessPub Forum - The Tarrasch in Black and White

Holbox Senior Member Offline Saigón Café Posts: 369 Joined: 02/08/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #117 - 03/03/10 at 21:02:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	MartinC wrote on 03/03/10 at 13:23:33: Surely not obvious that that bishop stuck on d7 is an improvement over the nice looking black squared one he had on f8 in the game? Either way white will have to manouver around for a good while. Dark squares a tiny bit weak with this set up perhaps. Black's problems are not in the dark squares. They are, IMHO, on the pawn weaknesses. With this setup black pawns seem stronger than in the game. Black will have time to find counterplay somewhere (probably on the king's side, but why not on the queen side with a plausible minority attack and by using the semiopen b-file). The black knight also looks wonderfull defending/attacking all eight central darks squares, and by the way, BxN would only level the game a bit more. The question remains what are white targets?

	"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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Holbox Senior Member Offline Saigón Café Posts: 369 Joined: 02/08/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #116 - 03/03/10 at 21:00:15	Post Tools	Print Post
	MartinC wrote on 03/03/10 at 13:23:33: Surely not obvious that that bishop stuck on d7 is an improvement over the nice looking black squared one he had on f8 in the game? Either way white will have to manouver around for a good while. Dark squares a tiny bit weak with this set up perhaps. Black's problems are not in the dark squares. They are, IMHO, on the pawn weaknesses. With this setup black pawns seem stronger than in the game. Black will have time to find counterplay somewhere (probably on the king's side, but why not on the queen side with a plausible minority attack and by using the semiopen b-file). The black knight also looks wonderfull defending/attacking all eight central darks squares, and by the way, BxN would only level the game a bit more. The question remains what are white targets?

	"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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MartinC God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 2115 Joined: 07/24/06	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #115 - 03/03/10 at 13:23:33	Post Tools	Print Post
	Surely not obvious that that bishop stuck on d7 is an improvement over the nice looking black squared one he had on f8 in the game? Either way white will have to manouver around for a good while. Dark squares a tiny bit weak with this set up perhaps. (White also not forced to trade knights on c6 I think. Unsure what that changes.) Doesn't look a good choice to use against Kramnik


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Holbox Senior Member Offline Saigón Café Posts: 369 Joined: 02/08/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #114 - 03/03/10 at 11:59:18	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 03/02/10 at 19:20:54: I assume they are on a7, c6, d5, f7, g7, h6. You're right. Smyslov_Fan wrote on 03/02/10 at 22:39:03: The last is h7, not h6. Not saying it would be easy, but Black does have hanging pawns. White could justify playing for a win by targeting those. I just looked up the game, and White managed to win the game by targeting the hanging pawns. Corrected. SF this is not the same position that in the game. Now black has a powerful light squared bishop. Because of this c6 is immune to any kind of attack.

	"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN
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Smyslov_Fan God Member Correspondence fan Offline Progress depends on the unreasonable man. ~GBS Posts: 6902 Joined: 06/15/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #113 - 03/02/10 at 22:39:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich, you're nearly right. The last is h7, not h6. Not saying it would be easy, but Black does have hanging pawns. White could justify playing for a win by targeting those. I just looked up the game, and White managed to win the game by targeting the hanging pawns.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #112 - 03/02/10 at 19:20:54	Post Tools	Print Post
	You know it's funny, but I can never see the black pawns with my screen background set to black. I assume they are on a7, c6, d5, f7, g7, h6. I think it's =w. For that matter, what is White doing to substantiate his alleged winning chances? Black is playing ...h5, ...h4.

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Holbox

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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #111 - 03/02/10 at 13:20:11

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This could have been a plausible continuation of the game Kramnik-Illescas, Linares 1994

You can follow the game here
http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1059705

Would you like to help me in understanding the position? First thing how would you evaluate this position? In my opinion it's something between "w" and "=w" by following Markovich's notation rules. Remember:

w Some winning chances for White, scant ones for Black
=w Scant winning chances on either side, White's play is easier

But how could White make any progress? And what should black do? Which is the most impresive black minor piece, the knight or the bishop? Terrific!!

« Last Edit: 03/03/10 at 11:50:25 by Holbox »

"Ladran, luego cabalgamos", NN

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MNb God Member Offline Rudolf Spielmann forever Posts: 10778 Location: Moengo Joined: 01/05/04 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #110 - 02/26/10 at 21:19:01	Post Tools	Print Post
	Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 11:16:19: It's like a Schara-Hennig Gambit, only the IQP survives a bit longer. A strong contender for the title wittiest remark of the year!

	The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged. GC Lichtenberg
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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #109 - 02/26/10 at 12:56:46	Post Tools	Print Post
	I've found it. A very nice refinement, and now I don't believe anymore that Black can hold himself. Will post it in the near future, in a month or so.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #108 - 02/26/10 at 11:55:00	Post Tools	Print Post
	I agree with Buecker - white's not winning that ending, and none of white's alternatives to Nxd5 are imposing. I'm still on the bandwagon for 16. Be3.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Stefan Buecker God Member Offline Posts: 1386 Location: Germany Joined: 02/11/09 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #107 - 02/26/10 at 11:48:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	18.Nc6 Bd6 and neither 19.Qd4 nor 19.Rd4 should win, I fear. I am not a IQP fan, but to have a doubled IKP isn't much better. - That's it for now. Black is a bit worse, but the variation is hardly dead.


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BPaulsen God Member Offline I Love Light Squares! Posts: 1702 Location: Anaheim, CA, USA Joined: 11/02/08 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #106 - 02/26/10 at 11:39:37	Post Tools	Print Post
	Ametanoitos wrote on 02/26/10 at 11:34:24: I really would like to believe that but what is the idea after 14.Qb3 Qd7 15.Nxd5? (15.Bxd5 is propably acceptable for Black but 15.Ndb5 is another potential problem) I suppose 15...Nxd5 16.Qxc4 Nxe3 17.fxe3 Rac8 (something else?) 18.Nc6! (not the only move btw) After 17.fxe3 White doesn't have a pawn up only, but two open files, fantastic center control, a fantastic Bg2 etc.... I think the idea is that black has drawing chances, even if slightly worse. Definitely not something that will inspire people to take it up.

	2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE. FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #105 - 02/26/10 at 11:35:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	@ Papageno: Thanks!


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Ametanoitos God Member Offline The road to success is under construction Posts: 1429 Location: Patras Joined: 01/04/05	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #104 - 02/26/10 at 11:34:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	I really would like to believe that but what is the idea after 14.Qb3 Qd7 15.Nxd5? (15.Bxd5 is propably acceptable for Black but 15.Ndb5 is another potential problem) I suppose 15...Nxd5 16.Qxc4 Nxe3 17.fxe3 Rac8 (something else?) 18.Nc6! (not the only move btw) After 17.fxe3 White doesn't have a pawn up only, but two open files, fantastic center control, a fantastic Bg2 etc....


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Papageno Senior Member Offline FM Posts: 299 Location: Germany Joined: 06/12/08 Gender:	Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White Reply #103 - 02/26/10 at 11:31:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	Concerning Schandorff's book: After 9. Bg5 c4 10. Ne5 Be6 11. b3 Qa5 12. Qd2 Rad8 13. Nxc6 bxc6 14. Rfd1 Bb4 he analyses a) 15. Rac1 c5! which he says was fine for Black in a game Golod-Kristensen, 2008. He then analyzes b) 15. Rdc1, a new move he calls interesting. c) 15. Bxf6 gxf6 16. Rdc1, where Loginov-Yevseev, 2002 is given as a model game. His treatment for the lines after 12... Rad8 is about ¾ of a page. Then there is also roundabout 1 page of material discussing 12... Bb4, following the game Wang Hao-Yuldaev, 2008. Hope this helps.


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