Ametanoitos wrote on 03/31/10 at 12:03:42:


I'm not arguing it's not equal, just pointing out that 13. Bf4 Qa5 = cannot be attributed to Grivas.

I'm going to assume the improvement is 14...Qa6, since black appears fine afterwards.

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It'd be hard to believe that black is slightly better there, but it's clear he has compensation.

It's not even clear white really has anything after 19...Qxc3 anyway, so I'm honestly not that interested in 16. Qc2. 

I honestly think the two moves Grivas dismisses as equal (14. Na4, 16. Rc1) are better tries. At least with those two white can try to improve, unlike with 16. Qc2.

One sample line I've looked at is 14. Na4 Rb8 (! - Grivas) 15. e3 Rb4 and now the simple 16. Rc1 (instead of the 16. Nc5 that Grivas mentions, which is equal) looks somewhere between += and = to me.

Ametanoitos wrote on 03/30/10 at 22:23:59:


I immediately notice that Grivas' analysis in CBM 120 doesn't actually give 13. Bf4 Qa5 as equal, in fact his main reason for not liking it as much appears to be related to the fact that the resulting += should be drawn with accurate defense, at some point making a comment that improvements are probably possible for both sides.

Grivas also analyzes your 16...c5, so I'm guessing your improvement that equalizes black occurs somewhere later, or you evaluate the resulting position after 17. Bxa8 cxd4 18. exd4 Bxd4 19. Be4 Qxc3 20. Qxc3 Bxc3 21. Rab1 (+=, Grivas) differently.

I'm confused by Smyslov Fan's post...

#1) What's the line you have in mind for black that improves on Schandorff's analysis?

#2) Are you expecting a bigger advantage than what's offered?

White's advantage in the Tarrasch in general is always of the nature that black is playable, but white enjoys a static structural plus. Nothing amazing, but nothing to turn white players away, either. The nature of the advantage seems to make some white players uncomfortable though...

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Reaching a += that's insufficient for a win against accurate defense isn't uncommon theoretically.

The pressure is still on black to play accurately in order to prevent white from winning, and it's not really an indicator of any positive chances black has.

It would be your prototypical two result game, there's a ton of opening variations where black has outstanding drawing chances even if the position is slightly better/easier for white. Lasker's QGD thrives on this very concept.

Ignore the previous question; I've analysed this line and concluded that the rare 11.Bf6 offers absolutely no advantage. 11.Bf4!? is an interesting alternative to the more common 11.Be3, though.

On another note, in Ametanoitos's first line, 11.Nc4!? seems to offer good chances of an edge, e.g. dxc4 12. Bxf6 Bxf6 13. d5 Bd7 14. dxc6 Bxc6 15. Bxc6 bxc6 16. Qc2 and White's superior pawn structure gives him an edge. I don't have time to analyse this further right now but I think it merits attention since White's other tries haven't given him much if any edge.

Sorry if this was already addressed earlier, but does 11.Bf6 Bf6 12.Nb3 d4 13.Ne4 or 13.Nd5 offer any chances of an advantage for White? Seirawan-Kasparov, 1983 wasn't a successful venture for this line, but 14.Nec5!? looks like an improvement over the game, with the idea of bringing the knight to d3. Whether it offers White anything is another question.

BPaulsen wrote on 03/08/10 at 13:38:04:


BP, the main reason to worry is that some of us play these lines in correspondence too.  There's a secondary reason to worry in that some players, such as Stefan Buecker, may not be at a par with the elite players but are technically capable of winning from these positions.

It seems that the discussion we had with BPaulsen and Buecker is not useless for the Black player (it is certainly not useless for the White player!).

To remind you, we came (or should i say, i came) to the conlusion that Black cannot equalise after 9...cxd4 10.Nxd4 h6 11.Be3 Bg4 12.Qa4 Na5 13.Rad1 Nc4 14.Qb3! and now we have a prosime by Mr.Buecker that he will post the refutation of 14...Qd7  . 

BUT Black can play 11...Re8 12.Rc1 (ofcourse there are alternatives here with the most dangerous being 12.Qa4 as Cox proposes) and now 12...Bg4 seems nice (this is what Davies recommends but he only touches upon this move with a game not well played by White).
After 13.Nb3 we will transpose to Petrosian-Spassky as discussed and after 13.Qa4 Na5 14.Rcd1 Nc4 and i see no problem for Black when i compare it with the lines we discussed because Black has gained the usefull move Re8! Also now 15.Qb3 Nxe3 seems playable after 16.fxe3 Qd7 because of this (not so small) detail. Also 14.Rfd1 is not critical after 14...Nc4.

So, what current theory thinks of 12...Bg4? I see that Khalifman gives 13.h3 Be6 (11...Bg4 12.h3 is not to be feared for Black according to Sokolov but now the position for Black is not so easy) 14.Kh2 (Sokolov also mentions this) 14...Qd7 15.Qa4 a6! (Khalifman analyses all other moves as inferior ones and i agree. Now Black want to play ...b5 with counterplay, so he forces White to play...) 16.Nxc6! bxc6 17.Rfd1 and White is slightly better in all lines according to Khalifman (the main idea is Bd4+e4) and the practice has confirmed this evaluation. But, Black has some interesting ideas here! One i like is 17...h5!? 18.Bd4 h4 19.e4 when the position is unclear to my eyes. Another possible improvement is 17...Bf5 18.Bd4 Qb7! when 19.e4 Nxe4 is equal and 19.Re1 Red8! 20.e4 Nxe4 gets the same evaluation. After 18...Qb7 there is only one game in my database that continues 19.Rd2 but after 19...Rab8 or 19...Rac8 i think that the position holds dynamic chances for Black adequate to call it unlear or equal.

I have switched to the study of 9...c4 now but i think that 9...cxd4 is underestimated. Even after 10.Nxd4 h6 11.Be3 (11.Bf4=) Re8 12.Rc1 Bf8 if we assume that White's best is 13.Na4 (according to Sokolov in every other variation Black equalises) and Rizzitano's improvenet is the best White can get, i'm quite happy with Black's chances here! I tried to play the position after Rizzitano's proposal but , although Black is a bit worse, i didn't find a way for White to get through. Maybe i cannot do this because my level of play is not high enough but i still think that Black's not without chances.