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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 50936 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #147 - 03/31/10 at 21:22:30
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Of course, you can use conditional moves too.  Cool (Open conditional moves tend to make the opponent think harder to see what was missed!) 

Smiley

23...f5 and if 24.Nf6+ Kg7
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #146 - 03/31/10 at 20:48:48
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You can use "if" moves if you like, to speed things up (if you are familiar with these email chess things). My reply is obvious 23.Rxe3
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #145 - 03/31/10 at 20:40:37
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I planned 22...Qxe3, but now I'm intrigued by another move.  Nevertheless, let's try the most obvious move:

22...Qxe3
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #144 - 03/31/10 at 20:21:31
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Yes, sorry i meant 22.Re1
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #143 - 03/31/10 at 20:20:06
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Just to be sure, are we discussing the position in the diagram?

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Because, if we are, it's 22.Re1
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #142 - 03/31/10 at 20:12:54
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OK Smyslov_fan! I like your suggestion. After 19.Qe3 Qxd4 i play 20.Re1although i think that the forced 20.Qxd4 Rxd4 21.Nxf6+ Kg7 22.Nh5+ Kh6 23.Nf4 is also at least slightly better for White. But OTB i would play for sure 20.Re1, so that is my move!
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #141 - 03/31/10 at 20:03:03
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Another line i like for White is 
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. g3 Nc6 6. Bg2 Nf6 7. O-O Be7 8. Nc3 O-O 9. Bg5 c4 10. Ne5 Be6 11. b3 Qa5 12. Qd2 Rad8 13. bxc4 Nxd4!! 
this is the move that is responsible Avrukh didn't recommend this line for White. Nevertheless i think that after
14. cxd5! Qxc3 15. Qxc3 Nxe2+ 16. Kh1 Nxc3 17. dxe6 fxe6 18. Bxb7 .
maybe White hasn't much, but i would be happy playing this OTB.

  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #140 - 03/31/10 at 20:00:12
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Well, if you're interested, we could try a short game from that position and post it here.  I really want to see white win, but I don't see any way at all despite the dire warnings about Black's B.  I have a feeling we'd only need a few moves to persuade the other if there are any realistic chances to improve White's position.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #139 - 03/31/10 at 18:59:16
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I don't know, but both lines you mention seem to be better for White! This is a really bad situation for the Bishop as was discussed by Rowson in his Sins book. When the pawnstructure is ruined then the combination R+N against R+B+ bad pawns is stronger for the side with the knight. Maybe i am wrong, i'm from the Black side, remember, but when i see something bad i feel i should tell it. Black is not lost after this Qe3 move but i don't feel happy about his position either!
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #138 - 03/31/10 at 18:36:37
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I like the feel of 12.Qd2, but I don't see even the mirage of an advantage for white in the position arising from 20.Be4 Be4 21.Ne4 Qd4 

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  If 22.Re1, Black often gets a double rook endgame with a symmetrical pawn structure (BxNf4) and no tactics for either side.

If 22.Qd4, White may be able to win a pawn, but only Black would have winning chances!

  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #137 - 03/31/10 at 17:57:56
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19.Qe3 Qb6 20.Bxe4! ofcourse 20...Bg6 21.Bxg6 hxg6 22.Ne2 and White is slightly better imo.

12.Qd2 is very flexible move postponing the exchange on c6 and forcing the a8 rook to d8 instead of the f8 rook (when the other can come to c8 typically).
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #136 - 03/31/10 at 16:53:19
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18.de4 19.Qe3?! Qb6 20.Ne2? c5! (20...cb3 should also equalise) 21.bc4 cd4 22.Qa3 d3 23.Rb2 de2 and Black should be quite happy.  So instead of 20.Ne2, perhaps 20.Qf4, but I don't see white's advantage there either.  

Schandorff tried to trade down to a double rook ending to take advantage of Black's horrible pawn structure. But even there, most of those offered white no advantage at all.

I'm doubting the efficacy of 12.Qd2, and Schandorff suggests the more common 12.Nc6 gives Black "good counterplay". So maybe the problem is 11.b3?
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #135 - 03/31/10 at 16:19:29
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@ Smyslov_fan:

First of all i'm very very sad because of Smyslov's death. He was a trye lover of excellence and he deserved much more fame.

In your main line after 18...dxe4 White can try something else f.e. 19.Qe3 seems nice for White
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #134 - 03/31/10 at 15:34:36
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Yes, 14...Qa6 is equal, but also OK is 14...Qb6.

After 16.Rc1 we tried together with a Greek IM to improve for White but we didn't manage to do so.

14.Na4 Rb8 15.e3 Rb4 16.Rc1 and now i'd be more than happy to play 16...Rxa4! I don't know if this is entirelly correct. but i cannot see a way forward for White. Maybe i'm wrong and best is 16...Be7.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #133 - 03/31/10 at 15:18:29
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Sorry it took a bit to get back to Schandorff.  I don't have Grivas' or Heilbach's books so the lines may be covered there.

Here's my problem with Schandorff's analysis:

Schandorff recommends (p. 192):

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3
c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. g3 Nf6 7. Bg2 Be7  8.
O-O  8... O-O 9. Bg5 c4 10. Ne5 Be6 

11. b3
Qa5 12. Qd2 Rad8 (Schandorff calls this a "cunning" alternative to 12... Bb4) 13. Nxc6 (13. bxc4 ={Schandorff}) 13... bxc6 14. Rfd1 Bb4 (14... Qa6) 15.Bxf6 (15. Rdc1!? {Schandorff} Ba3 16. Rc2 Bf5 17. e4 dxe4 18. Bxf6 gxf6 19. Bxe4 {Schandorff's recommendation.} Bb4 20. Bxf5 Qxf5 21. bxc4 Rfe8 22. Rb2 Qa5 23.
Rb3 (23. Rxb4!? (This exchange sac is my idea) Qxb4 24. Qd3 Unclear ~Me)) 15... gxf6 16. Rdc1 Ba3 (16... c5 17. bxc4)
17. Rc2 Bf5
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18. dxe4 (Shandorff only analyses 18... Bg6? here, but this is a mere transposition to the previous line where he showed Black's best defense.) 19. Bxe4 Bb4 20. Bxf5 Qxf5 21. bxc4 Rfe8
22. Rb2 Qa5 23. Rb3 (23. Rxb4!? Qxb4 24. Qd3 unclear Woah, deja vu!) 23... Bxc3 24. Qxc3 (24.
Rxc3 Re4 25. Rd3 Qxd2 26. Rxd2 Rexd4 =) 24... Qxc3 25. Rxc3 Rxd4 =

Edited to remove an extra diagram. Embarrassed
« Last Edit: 03/31/10 at 16:40:02 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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