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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 50868 times)
Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #207 - 05/11/10 at 14:00:34
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/06/10 at 09:38:47:
The only problem i see is 6...d4 7.Na4! (7.Ne4 Qd5!) Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2!
(9.Qd2 is nothing for White)
9...Qxc5 10.Rc1! (Rizzitano) Qb6 11.e3!
I analyse now in my book the risky 11...dxe3 12.Bxe3 Qxb2 13.Bc4! (13.Bd3 is not so strong) Nge7!? 14.Ng5 O-O 15.Qh5 Bf5 16.Bxf7 Kh8 17.O-O Qf6 but i'm not so sure that this is completely adequate even thought till now i haven't discovered something for White. Has anyone any good idea on this?


This looks risky but i haven;t discovered a refutation yet!
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #206 - 05/11/10 at 13:10:02
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/10/10 at 21:52:05:
Again, i say that my proposal is at least interesting! But none is hearing me! Grin

What proposal?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #205 - 05/10/10 at 21:52:05
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Again, i say that my proposal is at least interesting! But none is hearing me! Grin
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #204 - 05/10/10 at 18:37:19
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Markovich wrote on 05/06/10 at 20:19:31:

Hmm, you know, when I ask, "What would Tarrasch do?" I am led to 11...Nf6 instead of 11...dxe3.


Indeed, that looks quite good, the only worry is whether black's development is enough to win a pawn back and defuse the bishop pair.

12 exd4 0-0 13 Bc4 (13 Be2 Qxb2!? seems ok) 13...Bg4!? 14 0-0 Rad8 15 Bc3 Rfe8 and black's pieces couldn't get any better placed and white's next move seems tricky, but 16 Qb3 seems to be rather forcing: 16 Qb3 Qxb3 17 Bxb3 Bxf3 18 gxf3 Nxd4 19 Bxd4 Rxd4 20 Rc7 Rd7 21 Rxd7 Nxd7 22 Rc1 Kf8 23 Rc7 Re7 24 Rxb7 Ne5 25 Rb8+ Re8 26 Rxe8+ Kxe8 27 Bd1

with an odd ending.  I'd suppose that black has some drawing chances but I think white could feel aggrieved not to win this.


Yeah, and White can also try 12.Qa4 and 12.Bc4.  Having looked at it some more, I think that 11...Nf6 may be a good move, but that White is probably better anyway.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #203 - 05/10/10 at 17:00:34
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Markovich wrote on 05/06/10 at 20:19:31:

Hmm, you know, when I ask, "What would Tarrasch do?" I am led to 11...Nf6 instead of 11...dxe3.


Indeed, that looks quite good, the only worry is whether black's development is enough to win a pawn back and defuse the bishop pair.

12 exd4 0-0 13 Bc4 (13 Be2 Qxb2!? seems ok) 13...Bg4!? 14 0-0 Rad8 15 Bc3 Rfe8 and black's pieces couldn't get any better placed and white's next move seems tricky, but 16 Qb3 seems to be rather forcing: 16 Qb3 Qxb3 17 Bxb3 Bxf3 18 gxf3 Nxd4 19 Bxd4 Rxd4 20 Rc7 Rd7 21 Rxd7 Nxd7 22 Rc1 Kf8 23 Rc7 Re7 24 Rxb7 Ne5 25 Rb8+ Re8 26 Rxe8+ Kxe8 27 Bd1

with an odd ending.  I'd suppose that black has some drawing chances but I think white could feel aggrieved not to win this.
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #202 - 05/09/10 at 22:07:06
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ErictheRed wrote on 05/07/10 at 01:04:45:
So what line does your PC give after 7...b5?  It looks like quite promising play for Black to me.


When I was young, I made a deep study of the line 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.dxc5 d4 6.Na4 b5 7.cxb6 axb6 8.b3 (forced), and reached the conclusion that it was good for Black.  But with 5.Nf3 Nc6 thrown in, I don't think that Black can hold his own in the complications, in part because b3 isn't always necessary to save the knight on a4.  Thus 6.dxc4 d4 7.Na4 b5 8.cxb6 axb6 9.e3! and White is making headway.  What seems to be the main line goes 9...Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Bd7 11.Bb5 Ra5 and now I think that 12.Bxb4 is quite good for White, after both 12...Rxb5 13.Ba3 and 12...Nxb4 13.Bxd7+ Qxd7 14.b3.  "Quite good" is an understatement, even; both positions are dreadful for Black.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #201 - 05/07/10 at 13:19:41
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As i said i made a recommendation in my book that looks playable, though kind of risky. I haven't asked yet the "big heads" (some GM or IM friends) but i have time to change my recommended line if you find something wrong with it. All in all this looks like a good and simple line for White.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #200 - 05/07/10 at 10:20:49
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Yeah, having the flu I did not look systemetically for improvements for White. Especially 12.Rc1 is nasty as Black hardly can avoid simplifying to an endgame with a pawn down.

What did I miss after 13...Qb4+ ? A straightforward refutation of the Tarrasch would be sort of sensational.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #199 - 05/07/10 at 06:44:28
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OK, 7...b5 8.cxb5 axb6 9.e3 Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Bd7 11.Bb5 Nf6 12.Bxb4? and even now Black cannot avoid the forced draw but let's play 12. Rc1 or 12.O-O. Isn't White here just a lot better?
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #198 - 05/07/10 at 02:58:11
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kylemeister wrote on 05/06/10 at 19:16:06:
Is there a particular reason for focussing on 7...Bxc5?  I notice that ECO thinks 7...b5 and 7...Bf5 are both stronger.  Regarding 7...Bf5 Pachman, citing Kasparov, thought the same.


Perhaps, but 6 losses and 4 draws out of 10 games isn't exactly encouraging to chose 7...Bf5.
White has done well with 7...b5 8.cxb5 axb6 9.e3 but Bb4+ 10.Bd2 Bd7 11.Bb5 Nf6 looks playable for Black, Krasenkow-Halkias, Kavala 2001.

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/06/10 at 09:38:47:
6.dxc5! d4 7.Na4! Bxc5 8.Nxc5 Qa5+ 9.Bd2! Qxc5 10.Rc1! Qb6 11.e3! dxe3 12.Bxe3 Qxb2 13.Bc4 Nge7


After 11...Nf6 12.Nxd4 Nxd4 13.exd4 0-0 it seems to me that Black is playing for two results - and a win is not one of them.

Iso 13...Nge7, how does White meet 13...Qb4+ ? Has Black chances to survive after 14.Kf1 Be6 15.Bxe6 fxe6 16.Ng5 Rd8 17.Qf3 Qe7 ?

At the moment 7...b5 looks most attractive to me.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #197 - 05/07/10 at 01:04:45
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So what line does your PC give after 7...b5?  It looks like quite promising play for Black to me.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #196 - 05/06/10 at 23:30:13
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kylemeister wrote on 05/06/10 at 19:16:06:
Is there a particular reason for focussing on 7...Bxc5?  I notice that ECO thinks 7...b5 and 7...Bf5 are both stronger.  Regarding 7...Bf5 Pachman, citing Kasparov, thought the same.


I cannot understand why 7...b5 is given as an "!" by Khalifman. According to my PC white gets easily a large advantage improving on the game Krasenkow-Halkias. My PC doesn't like 7...Bf5 also. This move is not mentioned in my sources (my ECO is from 1998 and Aagaard, Davies, NCO, Rizzitano, Keilhack and every other source i have doesn't consider this also). So can you give us the idea behind 7...Bf5?
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #195 - 05/06/10 at 20:19:31
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1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.dxc5 and so forth.

Instead of 14...O-O as given above, 14...Ne5 is met with 15.O-O Nxc4 16.Rxc4 O-O (16...h6 17.Ne4) 17.Bc5 and this is perhaps +=?  One possibility is 17...Qf6 18.Re1 Be6 19.Nxe6 fxe6 20.Rce4 Qf7 21.Rxe6 Rfd8 (forced) 22.Qb3 and White retains his advantage.

Hmm, you know, when I ask, "What would Tarrasch do?" I am led to 11...Nf6 instead of 11...dxe3.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #194 - 05/06/10 at 19:43:55
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/06/10 at 18:45:54:
Markovich wrote on 05/06/10 at 13:58:28:
That's so simple and seemingly strong that I think I'll put it in my repertoire.


You mean from White's side? This was my thought also!


Well, I mean can U post exact moves leading to variation you show?
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #193 - 05/06/10 at 19:16:06
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Is there a particular reason for focussing on 7...Bxc5?  I notice that ECO thinks 7...b5 and 7...Bf5 are both stronger.  Regarding 7...Bf5 Pachman, citing Kasparov, thought the same.
  
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