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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 50952 times)
MNb
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #222 - 05/17/10 at 21:20:41
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I guess Black can improve on Gavrileteanu-Bonnet em IECG 1999 after 9.Nxd5 Qd6 10.e4 0-0 11.Bd3 Bg4 12.0-0 and now Rad8 or Ra8. But it may be harder to prove full compensation after Serper's 7.Be3 (iso 7.Bg5).
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #221 - 05/17/10 at 17:36:29
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What about 6...Nf6 instead of d4?

7.Bg5 Bxc5 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxd5 Bb4 (9.Nxd5 Qd6); and it seems that black has compensation for the pawn.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #220 - 05/17/10 at 17:28:31
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Yes, this 16.Nxf7 is a problem if you want to play for a win. I came to this solution for Black because i see nothing better in this 6.dxc5 variation. If you have another idea please help me. I don't want to publish a book on the Tarrasch and place a note in a side line that "Here there is no adequate solution for Black, White is better". Come on my friends!!! The one that will help me will receive a free copy  Grin
  
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MNb
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #219 - 05/17/10 at 17:05:49
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BPaulsen wrote on 05/17/10 at 13:03:50:
Seems like either player could potentially be happy with the outcome of the opening.

Not me as Black. Defending against a pair of bishops in a wide open position during both the middlegame and the endgame is not my definition of happiness. Also note that White can force a draw with 16.Nxf7 and it's clear that Black is playing for two results after 6.dxc5 - unless there is some substantial improvement.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #218 - 05/17/10 at 13:20:39
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@Markovic1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8. Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. Rc1 {Rizzitano} Qb6 11. e3 dxe3 12. Bxe3 Qxb2 13. Bc4 Nge7 14. Ng5 O-O 15. Qh5
{Greko attack!} Bf5 16. Bxf7+ Kh8 17. O-O Qf6 

  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #217 - 05/17/10 at 13:03:50
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/17/10 at 11:15:24:

Not so simple to prove an advantage here. After 18.Rfd1 h6! (idea Bh7!) 19.Bb3 Bg6 20.Qh3 Rfd8 is equal. Maybe not a complete equality but not a big problem either i think.


Coming close to, but not quite achieving full equality isn't much different than the Avrukh recommendation in the main line, so it's not all that terrible if the same decision is made here. It looks like another case of +=/<--> (slight edge white/black counterplay).

White player has reason to think he can play for a win, black player has a playable position. Seems like either player could potentially be happy with the outcome of the opening.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #216 - 05/17/10 at 12:36:44
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/17/10 at 11:15:24:
MNb wrote on 05/11/10 at 20:02:50:
If you with "refutation" a straightforward win I don't think there is. But White has a very pleasant game with two bishops in a wide open game after say 18.Rfd1. If this is the best Black can get the Tarrasch is in trouble.


Not so simple to prove an advantage here. After 18.Rfd1 h6! (idea Bh7!) 19.Bb3 Bg6 20.Qh3 Rfd8 is equal. Maybe not a complete equality but not a big problem either i think.


What are the first seventeen moves, please?
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #215 - 05/17/10 at 11:15:24
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MNb wrote on 05/11/10 at 20:02:50:
If you with "refutation" a straightforward win I don't think there is. But White has a very pleasant game with two bishops in a wide open game after say 18.Rfd1. If this is the best Black can get the Tarrasch is in trouble.


Not so simple to prove an advantage here. After 18.Rfd1 h6! (idea Bh7!) 19.Bb3 Bg6 20.Qh3 Rfd8 is equal. Maybe not a complete equality but not a big problem either i think.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #214 - 05/14/10 at 07:18:38
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Malaniuk's dxc5 (when Be7) and Qc2, without Nc3 is again a serious candidate for producing a slightly better position by forse in the Catalan move-order. I have tried but i'm not conviced that again i have found a convincing antidote here as well. Something similar was recommended by Kosten in his "Dymanic English" but he failed to spot the real critical positions White can reach.
  
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MNb
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #213 - 05/14/10 at 01:10:18
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I suppose that's true for the Catalan as well: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 d5 4.Bg2 c5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.0-0 Be7 7.Nc3 0-0 depending on 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Bg5 d4.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #212 - 05/14/10 at 00:02:18
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I guess I could add that this wouldn't inhibit the usefulness of the Tarrasch if approached via the Symmetrical English.

1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nf6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 d5, etc., bypassing this line being discussed above.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #211 - 05/13/10 at 18:42:22
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HgMan wrote on 05/13/10 at 18:22:13:
Markovich wrote on 05/13/10 at 12:26:20:
So far to me, 11...Nf6 looks best, but as I said, even here I would rather be Black.


White?


Yeah-yeah, White, sorry.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #210 - 05/13/10 at 18:22:13
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Markovich wrote on 05/13/10 at 12:26:20:
So far to me, 11...Nf6 looks best, but as I said, even here I would rather be Black.


White?
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #209 - 05/13/10 at 12:26:20
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I guess I didn't say so in so many words, but I like White's game after A.'s 14.Ng5 0-0 etc.  That's why I posted about 14...Ne5, though that doesn't seem to prevent += either.  So far to me, 11...Nf6 looks best, but as I said, even here I would rather be White.

So where is the attacking genius who will show us Black's chances in these lines?  Otherwise this becomes my mode versus the Tarrasch.
« Last Edit: 05/13/10 at 18:43:01 by Markovich »  
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MNb
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #208 - 05/11/10 at 20:02:50
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If you with "refutation" a straightforward win I don't think there is. But White has a very pleasant game with two bishops in a wide open game after say 18.Rfd1. If this is the best Black can get the Tarrasch is in trouble.
  
The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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