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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 50905 times)
Vandros
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #237 - 05/20/10 at 17:47:25
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The variation with 6...Bxc5 is rather unusual.
The old "masters" played 6...d4 7.Na4 b5!? which is a messy variation.
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #236 - 05/20/10 at 13:18:22
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I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that there's old analysis of 6...Bxc5.  Someone should check the Handbuch, for example.

Does White's queen have to go on this 9.Qg5 excursion?  Is 9.Qd1 too passive?  What, 9...Rd8 10.Bd2 Qxb2 11.Na4 is no good?  This blindfold, but is it so bad? 
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #235 - 05/20/10 at 12:16:39
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/20/10 at 09:45:51:
I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game


I agree with your last statement!

After 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. dxc5 Bxc5 7. Qxd5 Qb6 8.
e3 Be6 9. Qg5 Nge7 10. Qxg7 O-O-O 11. a3 Nf5 12. Qg5 Rhe8 you propose 13. Ne4, however, I suggest that Black can maintain some momentum with 13...Bb4+.

My engine suggests instead 13...Rg8 14 Qf4 Rg4 15 Qxg4 Nxe3 but I don't believe it - surely White gets too much wood for the queen and will eventually untangle.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #234 - 05/20/10 at 09:45:51
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I'm not sure if Black has enough in the first line after ...Rhe8 if White plays Ne4! But it is interesting although i think that Black is the one who has to find the more difficult moves to stay tactically in the game
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #233 - 05/19/10 at 23:59:16
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 13:06:30:
Quote:

I suggest 6...Bxc5 is also worth examining, aiming at VHS-type counterplay based on piece activity and White's uncastled king, whichever way White grabs the pawn. 


Can you be more specific on that?


I have attached some analysis. I am not convinced that Black can equalize or gain sufficient counterplay, but the line deserves some attention I think, especially since the alternatives do not seem attractive for Black as winning attempts.

To me, 6...Nf6 is the move that OUGHT to work, but so far I have found nothing convincing against 7 Be3.
  
QGDTarrasch6dxc5A.pgn ( 2 KB | 247 Downloads )
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #232 - 05/19/10 at 13:27:45
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 21:42:05:
Yes, i guess you are right. But the first time i checked this line i saw my PC claiming a nice advantage for White here but with some human input by me it claimed equal chances some moves later. I said i'm not too happy with Black here. If there were a cleaner solution i'd take it.


You may be right that Black is OK.  I'm not really a strong enough player to judge it very well.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #231 - 05/18/10 at 21:42:05
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Yes, i guess you are right. But the first time i checked this line i saw my PC claiming a nice advantage for White here but with some human input by me it claimed equal chances some moves later. I said i'm not too happy with Black here. If there were a cleaner solution i'd take it.
  
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Markovich
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #230 - 05/18/10 at 19:00:41
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/18/10 at 17:14:52:
This is what i write in my book about the f4 move:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8. Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. Rc1 Qb6 11. e3 dxe3 12. Bxe3 Qxb2 13. Bc4 Nge7 14. Ng5 O-O 15. Qh5 Bf5 16. Bxf7+ Kh8 17. O-O Qf6 18. f4 
and now my analysis runs:

18...h6 19. g4 Bg6 20. Bxg6 Qxg6 21.Qxg6 Nxg6 22. Ne6 Rf6 23. f5 Nf8 24. Nf4 Kg8 25. Rc3 Rd6 26. Rb1 b6 27. h3 Re8 28. Kf2 g6 29. Nxg6 Nxg6 30. fxg6 Rxg6 with equality. Again, i'm more worried about Mnb's forced draw (16.Nxf7)


Well, not much is forced after 23...Nf8, so it becomes a matter of judgment of the given position, it seems to me.   
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #229 - 05/18/10 at 17:14:52
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This is what i write in my book about the f4 move:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8. Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. Rc1 Qb6 11. e3 dxe3 12. Bxe3 Qxb2 13. Bc4 Nge7 14. Ng5 O-O 15. Qh5 Bf5 16. Bxf7+ Kh8 17. O-O Qf6 18. f4 
and now my analysis runs:

18...h6 19. g4 Bg6 20. Bxg6 Qxg6 21.Qxg6 Nxg6 22. Ne6 Rf6 23. f5 Nf8 24. Nf4 Kg8 25. Rc3 Rd6 26. Rb1 b6 27. h3 Re8 28. Kf2 g6 29. Nxg6 Nxg6 30. fxg6 Rxg6 with equality. Again, i'm more worried about Mnb's forced draw (16.Nxf7)

  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #228 - 05/18/10 at 16:03:33
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Markovich's analysis is convincing to me, enough so that it's enough to question the entire 7...Bxc5 continuation (including the 11...Nf6 try).

Definitely even more appealing than the Avrukh lines.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #227 - 05/18/10 at 15:20:27
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Ametanoitos wrote on 05/17/10 at 13:20:39:
@Markovic 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. dxc5 d4 7.Na4 Bxc5 8. Nxc5 Qa5+ 9. Bd2 Qxc5 10. Rc1 {Rizzitano} Qb6 11. e3 dxe3 12. Bxe3 Qxb2 13. Bc4 Nge7 14. Ng5 O-O 15. Qh5
{Greko attack!} Bf5 16. Bxf7+ Kh8 17. O-O Qf6 



I looked at 18.f4 with the idea of mobilizing the kingside pawns and just playing with N+B vs N+N and a more active king:

A. 18...Bg6 19.Bxg6 Qxg6 20.Qxg6 Nxg6 21.Ne6 Rf7 22.f5 Nge5 23.h3 intending g2-g4 with what appears to be a better ending for White.

B. 18...h6 19.g4 Bd3 (19...Bxg4 20.Qxg4 Nf5 21.Bd2 Rxf7 22.Bc3 Qe7 23.Nxf7+ Qxf7 24.Rfe1 and I doubt that Black has quite enough for his exchange ) 20.Rf2 Bg6 21.Bxg6 Qxg6 (21...Nxg6 22.f5) and further:

B1. Inelegant is 22.Qxg6 Nxg6 23.Ne6 Rf6 24.f5 Ne5 25.Rg2 but even here, the ending is not so terribly easy for Black, it seems to me.

B2. More elegant is 22.Qh3 Qd3 23.Rd2 Qa3 24.Rcd1 Rad8 25.Rxd8 Nxd8 26.Bd4 Qxh3 27.Nxh3 and this ending notably favors White, unless I'm mistaken.  His bishop is a strong piece.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #226 - 05/18/10 at 13:06:30
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Quote:

I suggest 6...Bxc5 is also worth examining, aiming at VHS-type counterplay based on piece activity and White's uncastled king, whichever way White grabs the pawn. 


Can you be more specific on that?
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #225 - 05/18/10 at 11:27:38
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Vandros wrote on 05/17/10 at 17:36:29:
What about 6...Nf6 instead of d4?

7.Bg5 Bxc5 8.Bxf6 Qxf6 9.Qxd5 Bb4 (9.Nxd5 Qd6); and it seems that black has compensation for the pawn.


Check out 9 Nxd5 Qxb2.

As others have pointed out, 7 Be3 is the big problem - ugly but seemingly effective. Likewise after 6...Be6 I guess.

I suggest 6...Bxc5 is also worth examining, aiming at VHS-type counterplay based on piece activity and White's uncastled king, whichever way White grabs the pawn. 
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #224 - 05/18/10 at 05:54:34
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MNb wrote on 05/17/10 at 17:05:49:
BPaulsen wrote on 05/17/10 at 13:03:50:
Seems like either player could potentially be happy with the outcome of the opening.

Not me as Black. Defending against a pair of bishops in a wide open position during both the middlegame and the endgame is not my definition of happiness. Also note that White can force a draw with 16.Nxf7 and it's clear that Black is playing for two results after 6.dxc5 - unless there is some substantial improvement.


Well, me neither as black, but I feel that way about Avrukh's treatment, too.

Then again, I may just be pessimistic about black's play in the Tarrasch in general.  Grin

Some people are happy to play slightly worse positions if they thnk they have reasonable play.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #223 - 05/18/10 at 01:04:10
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Yes, i have analysed 7.Be3 Qa5 as Keilhack gibes but i didn't like B;ack's position
  
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