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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 60800 times)
kylemeister
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #357 - 03/01/11 at 18:55:25
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It is surely true that ...cd isn't something Black should be eager to do.  For example it isn't the normal reply to 9. b3 (in the regular Tarrasch move order), which could lead one to wonder if 10. b3 in the move order under discussion isn't indeed good for White.

I was surprised when I saw a 2100 player play an early ...cd against Avrukh a few months ago; the follow-up there reminded me of the classic Rubinstein-Salwe game.
  
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TicklyTim
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #356 - 03/01/11 at 16:26:00
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Ametanoitos wrote on 03/01/11 at 15:32:46:
Just think of this. What is better for Black: to have the pawn on h6 or not? For sure having the pawn on h6 is an improvement for several reasons (no back rank mates, control of g5 square while there is no obvious drawback such as weakening of the g6 square which is not relevant at all). So, and only by this simple comparison, you can understand why you should prefer Be3 over Bg5 if Black exchanges on d4 soon.

A more subtle explanation is that the move 9.Bg5 in the main line Tarrasch forces Black to make a concession because the d5 pawn is in danger. So Black has to play Be6 (blocking the 'e' file, putting the Bishop on an exposed square etc), play c4 (which takes away the tension of the centre allowing K-side attaks based on f4 or play positionally with the b2-b3 break) or cxd4 (which gives the Nd4 square to the Knight, opens the Bg2 and clarifies the situation at the centre and so on...). So, Bg5 forces an concession, which means to give you something! There is no need to play this move if Black has already given you that something!


Wow, if the explanations in your book are as clear and understandable as that just given, I would say it must be a very good read!
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #355 - 03/01/11 at 15:32:46
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Just think of this. What is better for Black: to have the pawn on h6 or not? For sure having the pawn on h6 is an improvement for several reasons (no back rank mates, control of g5 square while there is no obvious drawback such as weakening of the g6 square which is not relevant at all). So, and only by this simple comparison, you can understand why you should prefer Be3 over Bg5 if Black exchanges on d4 soon.

A more subtle explanation is that the move 9.Bg5 in the main line Tarrasch forces Black to make a concession because the d5 pawn is in danger. So Black has to play Be6 (blocking the 'e' file, putting the Bishop on an exposed square etc), play c4 (which takes away the tension of the centre allowing K-side attaks based on f4 or play positionally with the b2-b3 break) or cxd4 (which gives the Nd4 square to the Knight, opens the Bg2 and clarifies the situation at the centre and so on...). So, Bg5 forces an concession, which means to give you something! There is no need to play this move if Black has already given you that something!
  
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TN
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #354 - 03/01/11 at 13:21:09
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TicklyTim wrote on 03/01/11 at 12:48:59:
Sorry, this has nothing to do with the book, but is a general Tarrasch question - I thought best to include here.

I have had two players play ..cxd4 quite early before I've played Bg5 in the main line.
Eg: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.g3 cxd4

I couldn't think of anything clever enough other than transposing to main line with a later 7.Nxd4 Nf6 8.Bg2 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bg5 which is what i played.

Searching for options I see that 10.Be3 is more often preferred without inducing ..h6. (In the main line ..cxd4 occurs after Bg5). 
So what's the difference if cxd4 has already occured? It's a bit too subtle for me. 
Is it to do with the c5 square?

I assumed taking on d4 early must be a bit of a mistake on blacks part - but I can't find anything dramatic for white.


10.b3! Re8 11.Bb2 is comfortably better for White, as noted by Marin in 'Grandmaster Repertoire Volume 5'.

  

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TicklyTim
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #353 - 03/01/11 at 12:48:59
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Sorry, this has nothing to do with the book, but is a general Tarrasch question - I thought best to include here.

I have had two players play ..cxd4 quite early before I've played Bg5 in the main line.
Eg: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.g3 cxd4

I couldn't think of anything clever enough other than transposing to main line with a later 7.Nxd4 Nf6 8.Bg2 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Bg5 which is what i played.

Searching for options I see that 10.Be3 is more often preferred without inducing ..h6. (In the main line ..cxd4 occurs after Bg5). 
So what's the difference if cxd4 has already occured? It's a bit too subtle for me. 
Is it to do with the c5 square?

I assumed taking on d4 early must be a bit of a mistake on blacks part - but I can't find anything dramatic for white.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #352 - 03/01/11 at 01:00:21
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5.dxc5 d4 is excellent for Black. More troublesome is 6.dxc5 when the path to equality is not easy to find if you are not well prepared. In practice this is a very very rare position. There is analysis on this many pages back in this thread. More convincing analysis you'll find in the upcoming Quality Chess Tarrasch book.
  
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Playslikefish
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #351 - 02/28/11 at 19:21:29
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Thanks for the comments. What I do is type up the the opening Tabiyas to move 8 and probably a few (2 or 3) early deviations. I study the opening by playing over games from there. Theory very light.

My summary of Marin's book on the Open Game in less than 2 pages. I love that book.
What concerned me a little was the position following 5. dc5,d4.  The kind of move people play against me. I have gone over the position and am comfortable with it - I think I can solve over the board.

  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #350 - 02/27/11 at 22:08:10
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TN wrote on 02/27/11 at 13:08:54:
On another note, if you're a bit of a gambiteer you can wheel out the Von-Hennig Gambit (3.Nc3 c5 4.cd5 cd4) occasionally for a bit of fun. 5.Qa4 Bd7 6.Qd4 ed5 7.Qd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.e3 Qe7 11.Be2 0-0!? is the critical line for both sides.

No, 10.a3 is as White sometimes might play Bg5. Alas I can't give details without making Stefan Bücker angry. There are some excellent articles on the Schara-Von Hennig Gambit in his magazin Kaissiber.
  

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TN
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #349 - 02/27/11 at 13:08:54
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Playslikefish wrote on 02/26/11 at 15:58:31:
I am thinking about trying to learn the Tarrasch. It seems to be a pretty universal answer to non-e4 systems. It also has the advantage to me of being different from what I play as White and against e4.

I have printed an article by Abby Marshall and necessary PDF pages from Chess Publishing.  The only middlegame book I own is by Sokolov who has a chapter on isolated pawns. I am hoping this will be enough to get started.

After reviewing this thread I became a little concerned that the Tarrasch was to theory heavy for me. Rating 1580 (goal 1800).

Mike



In conjunction with the Marshall article, also have a good look at Kasparov's games in this variation, since he brought the Tarrasch to relative respectability in the 1980s. Karpov gave him a bit of a beating in their 1984/85 match, true, but Black has found improvements over these games, and you will not be playing a Karpov.  Grin

On another note, if you're a bit of a gambiteer you can wheel out the Von-Hennig Gambit (3.Nc3 c5 4.cd5 cd4) occasionally for a bit of fun. 5.Qa4 Bd7 6.Qd4 ed5 7.Qd5 Nf6 8.Qd1 Nc6 9.Nf3 Bc5 10.e3 Qe7 11.Be2 0-0!? is the critical line for both sides.
  

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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #348 - 02/27/11 at 02:57:20
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Playslikefish wrote on 02/26/11 at 15:58:31:
I am thinking about trying to learn the Tarrasch. It seems to be a pretty universal answer to non-e4 systems. It also has the advantage to me of being different from what I play as White and against e4.

I have printed an article by Abby Marshall and necessary PDF pages from Chess Publishing.  The only middlegame book I own is by Sokolov who has a chapter on isolated pawns. I am hoping this will be enough to get started.

After reviewing this thread I became a little concerned that the Tarrasch was to theory heavy for me. Rating 1580 (goal 1800).

Mike



At that level you shouldn't study openings that deeply.  Only familiarize yourself with the themes and 12 moves or so of theory in the main lines.  After that, book the lines that come up in your play.

The point isn't to become a Tarrasch theory expert; the point is to become expert in piece play in open positions and the IQP.  Theory isn't going to win any games for you at 1600.  Do  what you need to do to win your own games.  But play the Tarrasch because it's a great chess education.
  

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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #347 - 02/26/11 at 16:29:56
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The theory-heaviness of the Tarrasch (however it may rank versus other major openings) is about the last thing you should be worrying about.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #346 - 02/26/11 at 15:58:31
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I am thinking about trying to learn the Tarrasch. It seems to be a pretty universal answer to non-e4 systems. It also has the advantage to me of being different from what I play as White and against e4.

I have printed an article by Abby Marshall and necessary PDF pages from Chess Publishing.  The only middlegame book I own is by Sokolov who has a chapter on isolated pawns. I am hoping this will be enough to get started.

After reviewing this thread I became a little concerned that the Tarrasch was to theory heavy for me. Rating 1580 (goal 1800).

Mike

  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #345 - 02/14/11 at 14:07:46
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The bad thing about 9...cxd4 is the many good options available to White.

9...Be6 is indeed the "old mainline" and the move that was played by Keres all the time. I don't think that the Avrukh proposed ending (Petrosian's forced line) is bad for Black. Jacob thinks otherwise and he is probably right but i am still not convinced and i have a specific recommendation against it. Also the Khalifman's proposal can be met by a neat way. 10.Rc1 is not critical at all though. Black just plays 10...c4! and he reaches a "safe" 9...c4 variation by transposition of moves.

9...c4 is a move that seems incorrect at first sight but it is actually simpler to play than 9...cxd4 and the play is "slower" and can be called more positional. We examine the "traditional" ways than Black has used till now against various attempts by White to gain an advantage but the real revelation of the book is the examination of a a new concept, a new way that Black can play and challenges directly the White's advantage. After so many months of analysis , gathering of the material and multiple tries of refutation we still didn't manage to prove Black's concept wrong.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #344 - 02/14/11 at 13:50:15
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I think that White is indeed a little better after 9...cxd4, but that Black's game is playable.  At the club level. I would say Black is entirely O.K.  Above that. Black has to play with some precision and may face a dreary endgame now and then. But White also has to play with precision in these positions. It may be worth pointng out that Spassky won his title match with Petrosian, placing his trust in the same lines that are here being hemmed and hawed about.

9...c4 is a move whose soundness I very much doubt, straying as it does so far from the standard themes of the Tarrasch. But for the time being I must bow to the authority of  Jacob and Nick.  I'll be very interested to see what they have to say on this subject.

I have no confidence at all in 9...Be6, which was considered the main line before Spassky came up with 9...cxd4. I studied this at length years ago, and though I don't recall the details, I recall throwing up my hands and abandoning my efforts to make it work. White has a pleasant choice between 10.dxc5 and 10.Rc1, though as I recall, the latter is the stronger.
  

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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #343 - 02/14/11 at 08:09:11
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That's why our main line in the book is 9...c4!

I think that after 9...cxd4 10.Nxd4 h6 11.Be3 Bg4 White is slightly better in both BPaulsen's lines and in Buecker's 14.Qb3 which made me stop looking the line for Black. Unfortunately 11...Re8 12.Rc1 Bg4 is no easy for Black either. Just look at Ward's proposal from his QGD book for example. More simple than the line given by Sokolov and Khalifman which is still better for White. As for the Kramnik's line with 13.Na4, again White seems to have an edge here although in club play i wouldn't mind be Black. The problem with 11...Re8 is that there are a number of dangerous possibilities that are also theoritically dangerous such as 12.Qa4 for example which was Cox's proposal and has been covered in other sources as well such as NIC Yearbooks.

BUT! In my opinion 9...Be6 is playable and fully sound. It will not be covered in the book, that's why my research on it is not complete yet, but from what i have seen i consider it at least a better practical try from 9...cxd4.
  
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