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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The Tarrasch in Black and White (Read 51002 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #102 - 02/26/10 at 11:16:19
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(14.Qb3) Qd7! may be best. Black gives a pawn, but holds the ending. It's like a Schara-Hennig Gambit, only the IQP survives a bit longer.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #101 - 02/26/10 at 10:52:41
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 10:20:12:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:37:55:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:08:36:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 04:35:24:
However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3.

18...Na4 also looks equal. 
White's move 14.Bc1 is a natural reaction. Still, isn't 14.Qb3 an idea? (I am only too lazy to look into the "Keilhack"...)


14. Qb3 is interesting, and untested to my knowledge. Let us know what you find, because it's interesting.

I didn't know the Anton game. I liked 14.Qb3, then I searched and found two computer games. However, both seemed to have some holes:

(a) 14...Na5 15.Qc2 Rc8 16.h3 ... 0–1, BeoWulf 2.0 - Delfi 2.40, 2x40 minutes 2002, but 16.Nf5 +/- is strong. Instead, 15...Na5 16.Qc2 Nc4 should be played. White can choose between 17.Qb3, returning to what you are presently studying, or 17.Nf5! +/-. 

(b) 14....Rc8 15.h3 (15.Qxb7 isn't much) 15...Bd7 16.Bf4 Na5 17.Qc2 ... ½–½, Scorpio 1.8 - Delfi 5.0, 2 x 30 minutes 2006. But White can try 16.Nxd5 Nxd5 17.Bxd5 Na5 18.Qd3 Bxh3 19.Nf5! (again) Bf6 20.Nxh6+ gxh6 21.Bxh6 and he should win.  


We have already analysed 14...Rc8 15.h3 Bd7 16.Nxd5 by transopistion. I found Black's position to be good enough. I think that 15.Qxb7 is the problem.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #100 - 02/26/10 at 10:20:12
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:37:55:
Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:08:36:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 04:35:24:
However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3.

18...Na4 also looks equal. 
White's move 14.Bc1 is a natural reaction. Still, isn't 14.Qb3 an idea? (I am only too lazy to look into the "Keilhack"...)


14. Qb3 is interesting, and untested to my knowledge. Let us know what you find, because it's interesting.

I didn't know the Anton game. I liked 14.Qb3, then I searched and found two computer games. However, both seemed to have some holes:

(a) 14...Na5 15.Qc2 Rc8 16.h3 ... 0–1, BeoWulf 2.0 - Delfi 2.40, 2x40 minutes 2002, but 16.Nf5 +/- is strong. Instead, 15...Na5 16.Qc2 Nc4 should be played. White can choose between 17.Qb3, returning to what you are presently studying, or 17.Nf5! +/-. 

(b) 14....Rc8 15.h3 (15.Qxb7 isn't much) 15...Bd7 16.Bf4 Na5 17.Qc2 ... ½–½, Scorpio 1.8 - Delfi 5.0, 2 x 30 minutes 2006. But White can try 16.Nxd5 Nxd5 17.Bxd5 Na5 18.Qd3 Bxh3 19.Nf5! (again) Bf6 20.Nxh6+ gxh6 21.Bxh6 and he should win.  
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #99 - 02/26/10 at 09:54:37
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Wow, calling it a refutation already. 14. Qb3 is definitely interesting, but if 14...Nxe3 really isn't good, then black's got problems to solve indeed. Maybe it could be the easiest route to an advantage for white (yay!).

And even that aside, I don't believe black is okay in that Fritz line I mentioned above. I've continued looking at it, and I can't find anywhere that black equalizes, which leads us back to 17...Bd7 where white obtains a comfortable += anyway.

I do like 14. Qb3 after looking at some possibilities in it.
  
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Ametanoitos
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #98 - 02/26/10 at 09:24:53
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Could someone post, if he is kind enough, what GM Schandorff recomends after 9...c4? After such a bad hit i think i deserve that!  Wink
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #97 - 02/26/10 at 09:20:35
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:08:36:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 04:35:24:
However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3.

18...Na4 also looks equal. 
White's move 14.Bc1 is a natural reaction. Still, isn't 14.Qb3 an idea? (I am only too lazy to look into the "Keilhack"...)


Cry 14.Qb3 looks like a refutation of the whole Spassky variation! Yes, big words ai know, but as i understand it there is no way to enter a satisfactory transposition to the Be3 ideas BPaulsen brought to my attention. Ofcourse there is also 14...Nxe3 but Black seems to have a huge disadvantage. The following game looks convincing:

[Event "Internet Section 18-A"]
[Site "Dos Hermanas"]
[Date "2003.03.18"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Anton"]
[Black "Hoffman, Alejandro"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D34"]
[BlackElo "2506"]
[PlyCount "97"]
[EventDate "2003.03.18"]
[EventType "swiss (blitz)"]
[EventRounds "9"]
[EventCountry "ESP"]
[Source "ChessBase"]
[SourceDate "2003.11.25"]

1. d4 e6 2. c4 d5 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. g3 Nf6 7. Bg2 Be7 8. O-O
O-O 9. Bg5 cxd4 10. Nxd4 h6 11. Be3 Bg4 12. Qa4 Ne5 13. Qb3 Nc4 14. Rad1 Nxe3
15. fxe3 Bc5 16. Nxd5 Nxd5 17. Bxd5 Qe7 18. Rf4 Bh3 19. Rh4 Bd7 20. Re4 Qg5 21.
Rf1 Qh5 22. Ref4 Kh8 23. Rxf7 Rxf7 24. Rxf7 Bh3 25. Qxb7 Rg8 26. Bf3 Qe5 27.
Qe4 Bxd4 28. Qxd4 Qe6 29. Rxa7 Qg6 30. Be4 Rf8 31. Ra8 Qf7 32. Rxf8+ Qxf8 33.
Bf3 Qc8 34. Kf2 Be6 35. a4 Bg8 36. b4 Qh3 37. Kg1 Qc8 38. b5 Qc1+ 39. Kf2 Qb1
40. b6 Qb3 41. a5 Qb5 42. b7 h5 43. Qb6 Qf5 44. b8=Q Qh3 45. Bg2 Qf5+ 46. Qf4
Qc2 47. a6 Bc4 48. Qf3 Qg6 49. Qxg6 1-0

So this unknown guy Anton improved over Petrosian and convincigly burries my hopes to play this variation! Ofcourse we should also congratulate Mr Buecker who also found this idea but unfortunately (as many times has happened to me also) someone else played it first. I'll move to 9...c4 although my psychological situation, after spending so many nights trying to make this playable, is in a bad shape. At least i feel satisfied that we discovered the truth (as it seems right now) in this very old variation. Unless 12...Qd7 proves to be somehow playable (i don't have the strenght to check it) i'll move on to 9...c4.
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #96 - 02/26/10 at 06:37:55
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 02/26/10 at 06:08:36:
BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 04:35:24:
However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3.

18...Na4 also looks equal. 
White's move 14.Bc1 is a natural reaction. Still, isn't 14.Qb3 an idea? (I am only too lazy to look into the "Keilhack"...)


14. Qb3 is interesting, and untested to my knowledge. Let us know what you find, because it's interesting.

My attention right now is on 14. Bc1 Nb6 15. Qb3 Rc8 16. Be3 Bc5 17. h3 Bh5 (alternatives seem to be agreed to as +=) 18. g4 (we previously analyzed 18. Nf5 which is somewhere between += and unclear) Bg6 19. g5!?, which is a Fritz suggestion that I mentioned in the last post. 19...hxg5 20. Bxg5 is pretty much forced, and we reach a position where black has to be incredibly careful to not drop the d-pawn, or run into powerful exchange sacrifices. As of yet I don't see a route to equality, and at the absolute minimum white has the initiative regardless of what black does.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #95 - 02/26/10 at 06:08:36
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 04:35:24:
However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3.

18...Na4 also looks equal. 
White's move 14.Bc1 is a natural reaction. Still, isn't 14.Qb3 an idea? (I am only too lazy to look into the "Keilhack"...)
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #94 - 02/26/10 at 04:35:24
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21. b3 doesn't interest me in the first line with 19...Be7 as much as 21. Rhe1 with e4 to follow. Black suffers from a very plain slight disadvantage in that case due to white's better piece placement after the center pawns are liquidated.

Correct is indeed 19...Bc5 where 20. b4 has to be best (20. Nd4 Na4 is also fully equal for black in addition to the line you gave).

I'm not convinced that the line starting with 20...Bxf2 reaches a position where black is "at least equal", it's just plain unclear. Of course, that doesn't matter because...

Black has 20...Be7 21. Nd4 Qc7 where he's equal due to the c4 square and his lead in development. White's entire plan is wrong if he is compelled to play b4.

I'm not convinced that moving a N to b5 is the right way to treat the position for white anyway, because white's entire point of playing his Q to d3 is to open up the Pb3 resource to embarrass the Nb6 (which the Ndb5/Ncb5 lines clearly do not accomplish, and are therefore strategically incorrect - this is a case of stupid computers).

18. Nb1 Re8 19. b3 Ne4 20. Bb2 (or 20. a3) would be keeping within the spirit of the position for white, and would lead to play most similar to the stem game. The black Nb6 gives reason to believe white can maneuver his way to a small advantage, because black is going to have to waste time getting it back into the game. However, black has 18...Nc4, which keeps that N in the game, and is therefore roughly equal.

The critical line remains 15. Qb3 with 16. Be3. 15. Qb5 is not a hydra head you need worry about. Speaking of hydra heads, here's another one and this one dangerous - 15. Qb3 Rc8 16. Be3 Bc5 17. h3 Bh5, Fritz has a real liking for 18. g4 (instead of 18. Nf5) Bg6 19. g5!? hxg5 20. Bxg5 for white. Crazy, but the more I look at it, the more remarkable the idea is. It's very, very easy to go wrong for black.

Aside from that, I'm not looking at this from a perspective of either side, if something's equal I'll admit it.
« Last Edit: 02/26/10 at 05:51:25 by BPaulsen »  
2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #93 - 02/26/10 at 04:17:48
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BPaulsen wrote on 02/26/10 at 01:18:11:
now over to your suggestion in the Qb5-d3 line, which you thought was more critical, and does seem to be so.

15. Qb5 Rc8 16. h3 Bd7 17. Qd3 Bb4 18. Ndb5 a6 19. a3 Be7 20. Nc3 Re8 and you seemed to be reasonably satisfied with it as being an improvement to avoid the += way the actual game went.

Here, I think white preserves a slight edge via the simplistic 20. Rhe1 intending e4 next move, since even with the removal of black's IQP white will be better centralized, and should have a slight initiative due to his better placed pieces (ie: the Bg2).

I've got a conclusion forming in my mind that while Spassky's variation is unfairly neglected in comparison to 11...Re8, white should still be able to obtain a small advantage with accurate play.


Yes, i agree that White may have a slight techical advantage. That's a reasonable conclusion. On the other side Black seems to have the kind of energetic play that below IM level gives excellent practical chances. And because the large majority of the members of this foroum are not GMs and IMs i'd expect more enthousiasm and effort to cut all those Hydras heads i talked about. I need some help! I feel alone on the Black side!  Undecided

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 c5 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Nf3 Nc6 6. g3 Nf6 7. Bg2 Be7 8. O-O O-O 9. Bg5 cxd4 10.Nxd4 h6 11. Be3 Bg4 12. Qa4 Na5 13. Rad1 Nc4 14. Bc1 Nb6 15. Qb5 Rc8 16. h3 Bd7 17. Qd3 (Kasim)
and now i really believe at 17... Bb4! the downside of 17.Qd3! (she doesn't control b4) 
18. Ndb5 a6 19. a3 Be7 20. Nd4 Re8 21. b3 seems nice for White in my eyes even though my PC evaluates it with the "strange" 0.00 like it is a forced draw!

I thought of 19...Bc5! 20. b4 Bxf2+ 21. Rxf2 Bxb5
22. Nxb5 axb5 23. Qxb5 Re8 and Black is at least equal in this unclear situation and


20.Nd4 Bxd4!? (20... Re8 21. b3 Qe7) 21. Qxd4 Rc4 22.Qd3 d4 23. Ne4 Nxe4 (23... Bb5) 24. Bxe4 Bxh3 25. Rfe1 Qd7 again doen't look at all problematic for Black. This Bxd4 idea is very typical when Black can push the pride of his camp, the d5 pawn! (or maybe the Black sheep of his camp?) and you cannot accuse me of using a computer because it's not in Rybka's five first choices!
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #92 - 02/26/10 at 03:33:27
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I was just pointing that it's another option where white doesn't require as much accuracy as black. The fact that numerous lines require computer-level precision from black to even hold the balance wouldn't inspire most OTB players, which makes it no big surprise the enthusiasm for it is limited so far.

Aside from that, check my previous post where I bring up your attempted improvement on the line you perceived as most critical (15. Qb5).
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #91 - 02/26/10 at 03:28:41
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But in the line you give Black is not a pawn down! And a more "human" aproach is 23...Kh7! 24.d6 g6 25.Ne3 Nc8 where Re6 coming and there is some play left with the White king not so well covered. I agree that Black should be really well prepared but that's not a problem for me!  Grin At the moment a agree that the Qa4 variation looks more scary than Petrosian's Nb3. But as it seems that not anyone else is interested about this variation except from you (for the White side) and me (the Black side) i propose to call it a draw  Smiley. Seriously now, i'd expect many more people here to be interested for the Black side. Spassky's variation with Sokolov's approval and all the discussion here where we touched critical areas of this system i'd expect more enthousiasm from the creative members of this foroum.
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #90 - 02/26/10 at 01:18:11
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It seems reasonable to think that white has slightly better prospects after 18. Nf5 even with 19...Re8.

Even in the long line you cite [white has other options on move 20, a computer line being 20. e4 Rxc3 21. Qxc3 Bxe2 22. exd5 Bxf1 23. Kxf1 Qd7 24. g4 (24. Nxh6 fizzles out to equality) where white may be slightly better] any draw to be had will require work from black, and even then it's black under pressure to show he's got enough for the pawn. Undoubtedly black has some compensation, but it seems like a two result game.

I think I'm reasonably satisfied with the analysis done in this line 15. Qb3 Rc8 16. Be3, now over to your suggestion in the Qb5-d3 line, which you thought was more critical, and does seem to be so.

15. Qb5 Rc8 16. h3 Bd7 17. Qd3 Bb4 18. Ndb5 a6 19. a3 Be7 20. Nc3 Re8 and you seemed to be reasonably satisfied with it as being an improvement to avoid the += way the actual game went.

Here, I think white preserves a slight edge via the simplistic 20. Rfe1 intending e4 next move, since even with the removal of black's IQP white will be better centralized, and should have a slight initiative due to his better placed pieces (ie: the Bg2). Black can only hope to draw the upcoming positions, there is positively no winning chances. This is just a two result game.

I've got a conclusion forming in my mind that while Spassky's variation is unfairly neglected in comparison to 11...Re8, white should still be able to obtain a small advantage with accurate play.
« Last Edit: 02/26/10 at 04:07:03 by BPaulsen »  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #89 - 02/26/10 at 01:02:48
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Yes, i have the same impression. After 18.Nf5 Bxe3 19.fxe3 Re8! 20.Nxd5 Nbxd5 21.Bxd5 Qc7 22.Bf3 Bxf3 23.exf3 Re6! seems again like a draw but we are real deep from where we started and the search for the truth becomes more difficult....
  
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Re: The Tarrasch in Black and White
Reply #88 - 02/25/10 at 23:35:37
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It is funny how it keeps moving backwards. Grin

And that 16...Bc5 17. h3 Bh5 18. Nf5! line looks fully convincing for white. Nice find, I am very impressed.

17...Bd7 would transpose to 16. h3 Bd7 17. Be3 Bc5, which I evaluated as += earlier (I'm not going to overstate the advantage, but white is more comfortable for sure - if this ends up being black's best white should be happy, and it is quite possible this is best in the end).

17...Be6 is an another try, but 18. Nxe6 fxe6 19. Bxc5 Rxc5 20. e4 looks like a comfortable small plus for white.

I'm starting to get the impression this is white's best try.
  
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