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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others (Read 25522 times)
TN
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #15 - 12/02/12 at 06:30:24
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Kritz's DVD for ChessBase covers this line, but I don't have it and of course there's the problem of creating winning chances with Black. But it's very tough for White to prove an edge and if you are happy to draw then this might be the system for you.
  
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BobbyDigital80
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #14 - 12/02/12 at 06:19:20
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Two years and no replies?  Undecided
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #13 - 12/13/10 at 14:01:10
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I would like to bring the above question of cma6 again to the attention of John Cox and possibly other experts on the Berlin  Wink
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #12 - 11/11/10 at 01:31:29
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/12/10 at 22:24:32:
As trw says, my, er, great work deals with the position JhF mentions. This is the normal move order of ...Be7 systems, and many people think 11 Bg5 is the acid test, though I don't agree myself. Other sources are Kaufman's Chess Advantage in Black and White and Kritz's article in Chessbase Monthly, I forget which number but I think there's a search facility on the site.


John, as one of many Berlin players who have gone though your book with a fine tooth comb, I wonder if you could comment on what seems the surprising paucity of the 9...Bd7 line, Kramnik's original (and wholly succesful) line used in the revival of the Berlin Defense.
I have not seen any great White success against this original Black plan, or have I missed a key game?
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #11 - 11/11/10 at 01:27:43
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JhF wrote on 05/12/10 at 07:59:37:
Wang Yue (2700) might be the most resilient advocate of the Berlin Wall and his approach is almost exclusively Be7-Nh4. The merits of this approach is that it trades the knights bringing black closer to the holy grail of a bishop ending but in the process it also allows f2-f4 for white. Then there is for example the Nf5-Ne7-Ng6, trying to prevent white from queenside expansion. The drawback of course is that it takes time.

As someone who is at the very beginning of the Berlin learning curve I would like to know what people opinion is of Wang Yue's approach compared to others and whether you have a preference for either. As a bonus question I am interested to learn how black responds to an early Bg5 (e.g. 9.Nc3 Ke8 10.h3 Be7 11.Bg5).


You can find a superb primer (for intermediate Berlin players) by Ponomariov in his annotations to Svidler-Pono in the 11/10 1e4 e5 update.
This was the old 9...Bd7 line by transposition.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #10 - 05/14/10 at 20:53:24
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Just cause I can't think of a game off the top of my head doesn't mean they don't exist. Even still in the given position the very last move I would play is Be7. I find every other reasonable black move to be better including all the ones i've already mentioned.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #9 - 05/14/10 at 15:57:04
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What I meant was that if you cannot find any games its probably for a good reason. Like John says, Bg5 is the acid test for the Be7 variation.
  
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trw
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #8 - 05/14/10 at 07:44:37
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JhF wrote on 05/14/10 at 04:19:56:
I mean that Be7-Nh4 plan does not go well with h6 and I am not able to find a lot of games like this, but I might be missing something. I found Dennis M's video on the Berlin but apparently it is only for subscribers.

Do you know of some top level game where black plays Be7-Nh4 together with h6 that I could have a look at?



I do know such plans have been employed but I can't think of a game off the top of my head. I found one but it was poorly played black lost: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1084861

i'll dig around more deeply when I have time.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #7 - 05/14/10 at 04:19:56
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I mean that Be7-Nh4 plan does not go well with h6 and I am not able to find a lot of games like this, but I might be missing something. I found Dennis M's video on the Berlin but apparently it is only for subscribers.

Do you know of some top level game where black plays Be7-Nh4 together with h6 that I could have a look at?
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #6 - 05/13/10 at 23:21:42
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JhF wrote on 05/13/10 at 21:35:52:
trw wrote on 05/12/10 at 20:23:23:
I feel much better is not to play the committal 10... Be7 until there is control over g5. I recommend 10... h6 providing black many ideas still involved with 11... Be6, Be7, Ne7 and so forth. Now that Ng5 and Bg5 ideas are gone for white.

Although black has many 10th move alternatives ... I like ALL of them better than 10... Be7. I will say that most of black's other moves are very committal to certain plans. 10... a5 10... b6 10... Ne7 play around with a few of them and see what you think. You have develop a feel for these types of positions more than anything else. In the berlin.... theory only takes you so far.


Together with the plan h5 to exploint white's quick queenside expansion h6 is probably not a good idea. Like John says, black cannot get around Bg5.



Thats simply not true, 9/10 black plays h6 and then h5 much later. Wasted tempo? Possibly, especially if we are talking about these in generic terms without a game at hand. But consider this, h6 served the purpose of controlling g5 to allow black to untangle his position and now h5 will serve the purpose of activating the h8 rook and destroying the white pawn structure. For a perfect example of this, I recommend watching Dennis Monokroussos The Amazing Berlin video (which is free and highly entertaining). Its short but will show you the idea in a way I think you'll never forget. At any rate, lets consider that in black's position in general he always seems to be down several tempos but still equal... so here whats one more? The plan is very concrete. Just sift through GM games constantly asking why after each move in the Berlin... and you'll be shocked at what you find. This is how I learned the Berlin long before any of these other great resources became available (Cox's book, Dennis' video, Kramnik's Dvd etc).
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #5 - 05/13/10 at 21:35:52
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trw wrote on 05/12/10 at 20:23:23:
I feel much better is not to play the committal 10... Be7 until there is control over g5. I recommend 10... h6 providing black many ideas still involved with 11... Be6, Be7, Ne7 and so forth. Now that Ng5 and Bg5 ideas are gone for white.

Although black has many 10th move alternatives ... I like ALL of them better than 10... Be7. I will say that most of black's other moves are very committal to certain plans. 10... a5 10... b6 10... Ne7 play around with a few of them and see what you think. You have develop a feel for these types of positions more than anything else. In the berlin.... theory only takes you so far.


Together with the plan h5 to exploint white's quick queenside expansion h6 is probably not a good idea. Like John says, black cannot get around Bg5.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #4 - 05/13/10 at 21:27:47
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/12/10 at 22:24:32:
The games you need to look at to evaluate WY's plan are Adams-WY (twice, I think, and certainly among other similar ones) and then Jakovenko-WY, in which Black's treatment met its Waterloo. I haven't noticed WY playing it since, though I stand to be corrected.


Thank you for the heads up John.

As you say Be7 approach is hardly a crowd-pleaser, but then again, when did chess become a spectator sport. For my purposes its the perfect thing.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #3 - 05/12/10 at 23:39:02
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IMJohnCox wrote on 05/12/10 at 22:24:32:
As trw says, my, er, great work deals with the position JhF mentions. This is the normal move order of ...Be7 systems, and many people think 11 Bg5 is the acid test, though I don't agree myself. Other sources are Kaufman's Chess Advantage in Black and White and Kritz's article in Chessbase Monthly, I forget which number but I think there's a search facility on the site.

You should know that WY had his own peculiarly nihilistic handling of this line, as compared to Kritz, for example. Basically he simply used to allow Nxe6 fxe6 and the exchange of all the rooks and play a bishop ending without forcing any concessions from White, something I rather warned against in my book. Kritz tends not to let this happen. The games you need to look at to evaluate WY's plan are Adams-WY (twice, I think, and certainly among other similar ones) and then Jakovenko-WY, in which Black's treatment met its Waterloo. I haven't noticed WY playing it since, though I stand to be corrected.

FWIW, if you can get hold of the correspondence and freestyle games of Topalov's second Jiri Dufek and another Czech CC player, Roman Chytilek, they will be very helpful. I am unsure how readily available these are, though.

My view is that this is not a terribly attractive way to play the Berlin, but there's no doubt it's a really, really tough nut to crack for White, and if you don't mind rather prospectless but equal or only very slightly worse positions, you couldn't do better.



We are honored with the man himself!  Cool Firstly, where do I get those games you mentioned from CC. I would like to see them.

On the point of Jakovenko-WY. It was analyzed (poorly) in one of the USCF magazines... but then WY managed to correct it himself with the following game... improving.  http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1539956 20... Ke8

WY seems to have played the Berlin 11 times with 0 record 2+ 2- 7= but it seems to be his main weapon in the Ruy. Also he seems to have played it 5 times since he lost to jakovenko. At least these stats are according to my database which i'm in the process of updating.

While we have the man Cox himself here... I would love to ask you about a variation to which you only devoted a page  Cry but called it the possible future of the Berlin. It seems to have exploded in correspondence recently although the only high level OTB encounter is a Shirov-Kramnik blitz game.  http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1479672

I present my follow cc game in this line, in hopes of hearing your thoughts regarding this move! I hope you find my cc game a treat. I am proud of this one!
I was white here:
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "1983"]
[BlackElo "2190"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Nxe4 5.d4 Nd6 6.Bxc6 dxc6 7.dxe5 Nf5 8.Qxd8+ Kxd8 9.Nc3 Ke8 10.h3 b6 11.Rd1 Be6 (to my knowledge this was a novelty) 12.Ne2 Bd5 13.Ne1 Rd8 14.b3 c5 15.g4 Nh4 16.Nf4 Bc6 17.Bb2 Be7 18.Nh5 Rg8 19.f4 Nf3+ 20.Nxf3 Bxf3 21.Rxd8+ Bxd8 22.Kf2 Bc6 23.Rd1 Bh4+ 24.Kf1 a5 25.c4 a4 26.Rd2 axb3 27.axb3 h6 28.Bc3 Be7 29.Re2 g6 30.Nf6+ Bxf6 31.exf6 Kd8 32.Re7 Rf8 33.Be5 Bd7 34.Kf2 Kc8 35.Kg3 Kd8 36.Kh4 Kc8 37.f5 gxf5 38.gxf5 c6 39.Bf4 Bxf5 40.Bxh6 1-0

I should also mention I've been employing this 10... b6 idea of Kramnik alot more recently than my previous 10... h6. so far results show in my play 0+ 0- 10= as black with 10... b6 as white I have 1+ 0- 1= against 10... b6 but as black with 10... h6 I have 5+ 0- 5= so I feel like 10... h6 provides more practical chances simply because its not committal... but 10.. b6 is a very interesting idea! Hard to break.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #2 - 05/12/10 at 22:24:32
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As trw says, my, er, great work deals with the position JhF mentions. This is the normal move order of ...Be7 systems, and many people think 11 Bg5 is the acid test, though I don't agree myself. Other sources are Kaufman's Chess Advantage in Black and White and Kritz's article in Chessbase Monthly, I forget which number but I think there's a search facility on the site.

You should know that WY had his own peculiarly nihilistic handling of this line, as compared to Kritz, for example. Basically he simply used to allow Nxe6 fxe6 and the exchange of all the rooks and play a bishop ending without forcing any concessions from White, something I rather warned against in my book. Kritz tends not to let this happen. The games you need to look at to evaluate WY's plan are Adams-WY (twice, I think, and certainly among other similar ones) and then Jakovenko-WY, in which Black's treatment met its Waterloo. I haven't noticed WY playing it since, though I stand to be corrected.

FWIW, if you can get hold of the correspondence and freestyle games of Topalov's second Jiri Dufek and another Czech CC player, Roman Chytilek, they will be very helpful. I am unsure how readily available these are, though.

My view is that this is not a terribly attractive way to play the Berlin, but there's no doubt it's a really, really tough nut to crack for White, and if you don't mind rather prospectless but equal or only very slightly worse positions, you couldn't do better.
  
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Re: Wang Yue's Berlin Defence and others
Reply #1 - 05/12/10 at 20:23:23
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I would argue Leonid Kritz and Zoltan Almasi came up with these plans for black before Wang Yue was even a GM.

On to the plans themselves... without concrete move orders its hard to discuss.. but as general plans go... I hate playing Ne7 Ng6 where the knight just sits as a defensive and useless piece the whole game. Black's entire plan usually revolves around trading one set of minor pieces (especially knights). So Nf5 Nh4 makes sense.

I would not model my game on Wang Yue though. Of course don't exclude him from study but he's not the best Berlin practitioner out there.

See this thread for even more sources:http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1270411421/0#0

If you haven't already, you should buy John Cox's book on the Berlin Wall.

And finally to the variation you actually gave a move order to, I feel this position is terrible for black as he now must part with the bishop pair for nothing gained... white is still pushing his edge and more brutally now without the bishop pair after Bxg5 Nxg5 h6 with either Nf3 or Nge4 I think white has the advantage unless one of my stronger friends cares to correct me.

I feel much better is not to play the committal 10... Be7 until there is control over g5. I recommend 10... h6 providing black many ideas still involved with 11... Be6, Be7, Ne7 and so forth. Now that Ng5 and Bg5 ideas are gone for white.

Although black has many 10th move alternatives ... I like ALL of them better than 10... Be7. I will say that most of black's other moves are very committal to certain plans. 10... a5 10... b6 10... Ne7 play around with a few of them and see what you think. You have develop a feel for these types of positions more than anything else. In the berlin.... theory only takes you so far.
  
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