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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Aggressive against the fianchetto variation (Read 10671 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #17 - 01/24/26 at 02:42:33
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I remember the old ..Nbd7 theory from the 1973 Barden/Botterill/Keene book. White keeps the tension and after ...Rf8-e8 d4-d5 black "takes it back" with ...Re8-f8 at a cost of two tempi.

After ...b7-b6, ...Bc8-b7 d4-d5, when black "takes it back" with ...Bb7-c8 it costs the same two tempi. Whether ...b7-b6 helps or hurts black remains to be seen, but it seems safer than ...c7-c6, which was a typical waiting move in the 1950s.

Playing both ...Rf8-e8 and ...Bc8-b7 while allowing d4-d5 costs potentially four tempi.

FreeRepublic wrote on 01/20/26 at 14:04:39:
he might have done better with 11...exd instead of 11...Bb7 as played.

So yes, it makes sense not to play 11...Bb7 there.
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #16 - 01/20/26 at 19:32:51
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Michael Ayton wrote on 01/20/26 at 18:34:39:
is the traditional …Nbd7 stuff against the Fianchetto now thought so inferior

I don't know if that is implied. For the moment, I just think Davies is emphasizing the positive aspect of ...b6.

Davies annotates 8 games, two by Gawain Jones. I think Davies and Jones have decided that ...b6 is useful in both open and closed positions. From the introduction:
"The idea is to capture on d4 and get intensified pressure against White’s e4 pawn, whilst if White plays d4-d5 the b6 pawn can help restrain White’s c4-c5 plan. Even after the exchange of pawns on e5 the b6 pawn is useful, helping to control the key c5 square."

I standadized the moves to 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 Re8 9. h3 b6. Black lost this the first eight games played! It was played in 1938, 1945 and 1990, Wojtkiewicz-Brooks, New York. No wonder the authors of ECO were not impressed!

However, this position became popular in 2021 due to games by Praggnanandhaa and Golubev. In my data base it scores well:  +39 =17 -37.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #15 - 01/20/26 at 18:34:39
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Why does Davies suggest that this …b6 line against White’s fianchetto might justify the early …e5/…Nbd7 approach for Black, when Black could adopt this move order then mainline it with 8 …ed instead of 8 …b6? Surely it’s Jones’s (7) …Nbd7 in the Be2 Classical KID (which Davies in fact mentions) by which the Old Indian move order stands or falls. Or is the traditional …Nbd7 stuff against the Fianchetto now thought so inferior that that may no longer be true?
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #14 - 01/20/26 at 14:45:14
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FreeRepublic wrote on 01/20/26 at 14:04:39:
[quote author=7D6F7A737B737F65627364160 link=1278926467/11#11 date=1768860007]After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 Re8 9. h3 b6 10. Bg5 h6 11. Be3, he might have done better with 11...exd instead of 11...Bb7 as played.

I notice that the authors of "Wojo's Weapons" (vol. 2) didn't mention that possibility.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #13 - 01/20/26 at 14:04:39
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kylemeister wrote on 01/19/26 at 22:00:07:
ECO, now about 18 years old, gave 9...b6 as dubious and leading to a clear advantage for White citing Wojtkiewicz-Brooks, New York 1990.

Brooks, rated 300 points lower, put up a pretty good fight.

After 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 g6 3. Nf3 Bg7 4. g3 O-O 5. Bg2 d6 6. O-O Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 Re8 9. h3 b6 10. Bg5 h6 11. Be3, he might have done better with 11...exd instead of 11...Bb7 as played.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #12 - 01/19/26 at 23:52:18
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Thanks.

I once waited on MCO updates. Then on ECO updates. I think it would take  a team of analysts to update an ECO volume.

These products had good research and analysis. One advantage was that you could see lines in context. Is this a major line, or a minor variation? Also, one could scan end of line evaluations to get a sense of things.

Sometimes that was misleading. The Velimirovic attack in the Sicilian mostly ended with = or unclear. Looking at the footnotes showed a different story. Black lost many over the board games, but was revived in the post-mortem.

Even now with computers, it would be good to know what happens if you step off the (narrow?) path that leads to equality.

I think a lot of opening theory in ECO remains valid and sometimes we discover something that has been discovered before.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #11 - 01/19/26 at 22:00:07
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FreeRepublic wrote on 01/19/26 at 17:19:40:
Is this (or something similar) covered in ECO?

The maybe last-ever edition of the orange (volume E) ECO, now about 18 years old, gave 9...b6 as dubious and leading to a clear advantage for White citing Wojtkiewicz-Brooks, New York 1990. 

The first edition (about 48 years old) had ...b6 on move 8, leading to a clear advantage for White citing Rubinstein-Reti, London 1922.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #10 - 01/19/26 at 17:19:40
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GM Davies presents a double fiancheto by black. The ideas of the double-fiancheto are explained in the January 26th issue of ChessPublising. Various move orders are possible. For example,

1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 g6 3. c4 Bg7 4. Nc3 d6 5. g3 O-O 6. Bg2 Nbd7 7. O-O e5 8. e4 Re8 9. h3 b6

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Is this (or something similar) covered in ECO?

GM Davies examines 10Re1, 10d5, and 10dxe. 

I'll add another 10th move 10.Bg5. After 10. Bg5 ed4 11. Nd4 Bb7 12. Qc2 h6 13. Be3 a6 14. Rad1 c5, the game resembles the Gallagher variation.

  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #9 - 10/11/10 at 21:55:20
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If you play the Dutch as well, then it could be an idea to try to "change openings", with ...Ne4 and ...f5. 

Something like this:
1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6  3.c4 Bg7 4.g3 d6 5.Bg2 O-O 6.O-O Ne4 7.Qc2 f5 

It's probably most effective if you know that your opponent plays 2.Nc3 or some other minor variation after 1.d4 f5.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #8 - 10/09/10 at 12:39:30
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Time has already told, I think. It´s an interesting way to complicate the game but objectively White is slightly better.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #7 - 10/09/10 at 00:42:57
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kylemeister wrote on 10/08/10 at 23:10:56:
No, the Gallagher is this sort of thing:  6...Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 ed 9. Nxd4 Re8 10. h3 a6. 

Incidentally I recently noticed Sam Shankland giving 10...a6 a "?!", and saying that he thinks the old way of playing (with moves like ...Nc5, ...a5 and ...c6) is better.  I would think that both are generally regarded as "+/=" with best play, and so it should be difficult to make such a distinction.


Oh yeah! I remember now. But honestly, it seems dubious to play ...c5 leaving a weakness on d6 in the center. Time will tell.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #6 - 10/08/10 at 23:10:56
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No, the Gallagher is this sort of thing:  6...Nbd7 7. Nc3 e5 8. e4 ed 9. Nxd4 Re8 10. h3 a6. 

Incidentally I recently noticed Sam Shankland giving 10...a6 a "?!", and saying that he thinks the old way of playing (with moves like ...Nc5, ...a5 and ...c6) is better.  I would think that both are generally regarded as "+/=" with best play, and so it should be difficult to make such a distinction.
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #5 - 10/08/10 at 22:45:46
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Is 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 0-0 5.Nf3 d6 6.0-0 Nc6 7.Nc3 e5 8.d5 Ne7 the Gallagher Variation????
  
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #4 - 07/27/10 at 21:16:33
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Maybe transpose to a Grunfeld? It is what a lot of kidders do anyway.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Aggressive against the fianchetto variation
Reply #3 - 07/12/10 at 21:34:56
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Thanks TonyRo and thanks MNB.

I have a book written by Gallagher so i can find the suggested  line
  

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