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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! (Read 42535 times)
micawber
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #16 - 03/20/11 at 13:07:12
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I think the Bishop Gambit is certainly playable for White, but Black need not fear it:
All main lines are playable for him d5/Qh4; 3...Nf6 4.Nc3,c6 or 3...Nc6.

Regarding 3...Nf6 4.Nc3,c6 @Master Om

I am only aware of one game Morozovich-Anand, and that was played in 1995. Was there a more recent encounter?
As for the 1995 game, the opening position was a rather unlear affair. But I would like to point out Black need not put his bishop on b4, since Bd6 is a reasonable alternative.
Reference games include two encounters Kennaugh-Hebden in 2006 and 2007 and Navarra-Gelfand,2008.

Black plays 3...Nc6
I would not go so far as to claim it a refutation, or something that would bring Black a forced advantage. But imo and that of others it is a perfectly sound reply.

Regarding the recommendation against the Bishop Gambit
in Dangerous Weapons against 3.Bc4,Nc6.
This line was allready discussed some years back.

micawber wrote on 03/25/08 at 22:18:39:
@Markovich  Is this another road to the Hanstein?

What he actually gives is
4.Nf3 g5 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Nd5!? d6 7.d4 h6 8.c3 Nf6 9.h4.


Actually it is not, though its very much alike. The difference is that
white has not played an early 0-0, but has played h4 instead.
These are the marks of the Philidor-variation, although the most
common move order starts of with 3.Nf3,g5 4.d4 rather than 3.Bc4

The special part of the transposition is white's early 6.Nd5
which makes it possible to play c3 without blocking the
development of his queens knight.
(the knight seems quite happy on d5, because black's early Nc6 makes
it difficult to drive away).


Still the postion after white's 9th move might be reached by 'normal means':

3.Nf3,g5 4.Bc4,Bg7 5.d4,h6 6.Nc3,d6 7.Nd5,Nc6 8.c3,Nf6 9.h4
In fact this position is quite old:
we have transposed to Pillsbury-Schlechter, Vienna 1903.
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
* * * * * * * *
*

From this postion black has played to variations:
(a) 9....g4 10.Nd2!, Nh5?! 11.Nf1!,Bf6 12.Bxf4,Nxf4 13.Nxf4 +=
Pillsbury-Slechter, Vienna, 1903
Playing through the entire game I have the impression that black
should either play 10....Nxd5 or 11...Be6.
(b) 9....Bg4 is a more modern variation
     [b1] 10.Nxf6+, Qxf6 11.Kf2?!,0-0-0 left black on top in
     Sochachki-Fougerit, France 2004.
     [b2] 10.hxg,hxg 11.Rxh8,Bxh8 is a better try
     but it certainly does not promise white an advantage
      Furhoff-M.Andersson, Sweden 1994.


But that is not all that can be said. Black has an interesting side
variation at his disposal:

8.c3, Nge7    (iso Nf6; other playable moves: 8...Na5, 8...Be6)
9.0-0, Nxd5   (note that this position can also
                    arise by transposition from 8...Nf6 9.0-0 (iso h4),Nxd5
10.Bxd5,Ne7
11.Bb3,Ng6
12.g3

We have been following Aljechin-Mikulka, 1923
Now Mikulka played 12...fxg3? and saw his advantage dissapear
after 13.Nxg5!
But when the same position was reached by transposition in
in Laszlo-Gymesi, Hungary 1994 black played
12......Bh3!
13.Rf2, Qd7
and black holds the advantage.

Dangerous weapons can cut both ways   Undecided




  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #15 - 03/20/11 at 12:40:52
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Master Om wrote on 03/20/11 at 04:32:32:
It is interesting To see what Chess engines think. Deep Rybka 4.1 SSE42 suggests 3...Nc6! but Houdini suggests 3...Qh4+ and sticks to it when I ran both on a Hexacore MAchine for 2 hours in MPV 3. Houdini gives eval of -/+ 0.56 with 3...Qh4+ and Rybka gives =/+ 0.37 with 3...Nc6.


Two things you need to keep in mind when it comes to computer analysis, though:

Eval() is primarily a function for ordering and selecting moves. If the number an engine spits out with the variation happens to make sense to you, or if that number happens to accurately reflect the winning chances of the program in question, that's mostly a happy coincidence.

The fact that computers can calculate millions of positions every second gives them a different set of priorities than human players. Computers 'like' positions where their opponents have to make straightforward, practically forced moves, while the best moves for their own side are utterly unclear. Why? Because it minimizes their opponents chances of finding unexpectedly good variations, and maximizes their own. Unless you recon you're the next Tal, you probably don't want to emulate this approach OTB.
  
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MNb
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #14 - 03/20/11 at 10:51:06
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At this stage I don't give even a single SRD what computers say.

TN wrote on 03/20/11 at 04:14:42:
'Dangerous Weapons: 1.e4 e5' claims an edge for White after 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Nd5 d6 7.d4 h6 8.c3 Nf6 9.h4, based on Pillsbury-Schlechter, Vienna 1903.

This looks like a Philidor Gambit, but it doesn't really transpose.
Black has other options on the 8th and 7th move. White should look at 7...g4 for instance.
  

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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #13 - 03/20/11 at 04:32:32
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MNb wrote on 03/19/11 at 20:43:21:
I did not grant 3...Nc6 two exclams, did I? I think it's the best move because a) I don't believe in White's chances in the Hanstein (despite Markovich' remarks) and b) after 4.d4 Nf6 Black develops irritating pressure on White's centre with ...Bb4 and ...d5. Compared to 3...c6 Black's development is faster, which also should count for something.
Study chapter 18 and judge for yourself. While TJ has done an excellent job I am not convinced of White's chances. Just my two SRD.


Well I added 2 exclaims not for good move but for surprise value. It is interesting To see what Chess engines think. Deep Rybka 4.1 SSE42 suggests 3...Nc6! but Houdini suggests 3...Qh4+ and sticks to it when I ran both on a Hexacore MAchine for 2 hours in MPV 3. Houdini gives eval of -/+ 0.56 with 3...Qh4+ and Rybka gives =/+ 0.37 with 3...Nc6.
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #12 - 03/20/11 at 04:14:42
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'Dangerous Weapons: 1.e4 e5' claims an edge for White after 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.Nd5 d6 7.d4 h6 8.c3 Nf6 9.h4, based on Pillsbury-Schlechter, Vienna 1903. But I highly doubt this evaluation of 3...Nc6 since firstly, the above variation is far from forced, and secondly 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Bb4 6.Nd5 (not forced) Nd5 7.ed5 Qe7, played in Ivanchuk-Aronian, World Blitz Championship 2009, is comfortable for Black.
  

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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #11 - 03/19/11 at 20:43:21
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I did not grant 3...Nc6 two exclams, did I? I think it's the best move because a) I don't believe in White's chances in the Hanstein (despite Markovich' remarks) and b) after 4.d4 Nf6 Black develops irritating pressure on White's centre with ...Bb4 and ...d5. Compared to 3...c6 Black's development is faster, which also should count for something.
Study chapter 18 and judge for yourself. While TJ has done an excellent job I am not convinced of White's chances. Just my two SRD.
  

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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #10 - 03/19/11 at 16:49:56
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MNb wrote on 03/18/11 at 17:00:10:
Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01:
Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4

3...Nc6 as 4.Nf3 g5 will transpose to the Hanstein Gambit and 4.d4 Nf6 is not easy either.
But you'll have to buy Thomas Johansson's excellent The Fascinating King's Gambit for the details.


Thanks MNB. I have that Book Now. But it suggests 3...Nf6  4...c6 the Jaenisch Bogoljubov Defence to be the main move. What is the key to 3...Nc6!! than 3...Nf6 and c6 line ?
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #9 - 03/19/11 at 04:01:40
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Markovich wrote on 03/18/11 at 20:24:59:
White gets his chances in those ...g5 lines, so it's not very surprising to me that what I believe to be a theoretical edge for Black hasn't translated into anything great in the limited practice of this line.  After all, the Bishop's Gambit doesn't come up very often among players with excellent technique.  I might not play 3...Nc6 against this gambit myself, at least not OTB, just because of the difficulty of handling positions with ...g5 in.  And I do not have excellent technique. 

But I still think that theoretically, 3...Nc6 is the most testing.

2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 intending transposition to the Modern or else Bogolyubov's Defense (3...Nf6 4.Nc3 c6) are both perfectly fine in practice, to answer the OP.

I would stay well away from 3...Qh4+.


Granted Markovich. I used to play Qh4+ OTB with success.
I looked at T Johanssen and Micawber's Analysis . In the Fascinating Kings Gambit he Says 3....Nf6 4....c6 to be main line and O Duras Line 3....Nc6 to be Equal but Micawbers Analysis Recomends 3...Nc6. Bit confused.  Huh
« Last Edit: 03/19/11 at 13:27:51 by Markovich »  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #8 - 03/18/11 at 20:24:59
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White gets his chances in those ...g5 lines, so it's not very surprising to me that what I believe to be a theoretical edge for Black hasn't translated into anything great in the limited practice of this line.  After all, the Bishop's Gambit doesn't come up very often among players with excellent technique.  I might not play 3...Nc6 against this gambit myself, at least not OTB, just because of the difficulty of handling positions with ...g5 in.  And I do not have excellent technique. 

But I still think that theoretically, 3...Nc6 is the most testing.

2...d5 3.exd5 exf4 intending transposition to the Modern or else Bogolyubov's Defense (3...Nf6 4.Nc3 c6) are both perfectly fine in practice, to answer the OP.

I would stay well away from 3...Qh4+.
« Last Edit: 03/19/11 at 13:27:22 by Markovich »  

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Re: Refuting King's Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #7 - 03/18/11 at 19:01:16
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MNb wrote on 03/18/11 at 17:00:10:
Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01:
Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4

3...Nc6 as 4.Nf3 g5 will transpose to the Hanstein Gambit and 4.d4 Nf6 is not easy either.
But you'll have to buy Thomas Johansson's excellent The Fascinating King's Gambit for the details.


I checked my corr base on this a while back, and the ML I gave at the time seems to hold up still, iirc the stats were something like +1 =18 -1. So, it's hardly a refutation - despite the hype it's gotten.

If White wants to win at all cost he might be able to dig up some chances in the alternative lines with 5.e5 instead of Nc3, where he gives up an exchange - or they may all turn out even worse nowadays... If there is something it won't be easy to find.
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #6 - 03/18/11 at 17:37:19
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MNb wrote on 03/18/11 at 17:21:30:
If I had thought otherwise I wouldn't have written that 3...Nc6 is best. It's better than 3...c6, better than 3...Qh4+, better than 3...d5 and better than any other move.
If you ask me, which you do.


Ok Taking as Granted. I will Let you know my doubts after I analyse myself.
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #5 - 03/18/11 at 17:21:30
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If I had thought otherwise I wouldn't have written that 3...Nc6 is best. It's better than 3...c6, better than 3...Qh4+, better than 3...d5 and better than any other move.
If you ask me, which you do.
  

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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #4 - 03/18/11 at 17:11:00
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MNb wrote on 03/18/11 at 17:00:10:
Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01:
Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4

3...Nc6 as 4.Nf3 g5 will transpose to the Hanstein Gambit and 4.d4 Nf6 is not easy either.
But you'll have to buy Thomas Johansson's excellent The Fascinating King's Gambit for the details.


3...Nc6 ?? . Is it better than Qh4+ ?
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #3 - 03/18/11 at 17:09:38
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Schwebbz wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:36:50:
First of all, 3.Bc5 is not a legal move. Assuming you meant Bc4, I think the best try for black to seize the initiative is by 3...Qh4+ 4.Kf1 d6, IMO.


Edited. Sorry.
  
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Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #2 - 03/18/11 at 17:00:10
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Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01:
Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4

3...Nc6 as 4.Nf3 g5 will transpose to the Hanstein Gambit and 4.d4 Nf6 is not easy either.
But you'll have to buy Thomas Johansson's excellent The Fascinating King's Gambit for the details.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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