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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C25: The Everlasting Fyfe Gambit (Read 240294 times)
Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #54 - 07/13/12 at 07:27:00
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gewgaw's amusing "crazy line" deserves a diagram: 
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8. Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 

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10...Be2+! 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2. The final position with three pieces for the Queen is completely unclear.  Smiley Earlier in the variation, maybe 9...Qe7!? is an idea, but I haven't looked in detail. 

Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/12/12 at 16:48:33:
One of the reasons I liked the Qh4+ g3 Qe7 maneuver against f4 was to deny White the f3 square for his N.

5...Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 7.Kf2 Qc5 8.Nf3!. 

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Why should White be worse?
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #53 - 07/12/12 at 19:51:28
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kylemeister wrote on 07/12/12 at 14:32:31:
Regarding bbush60854-strongplayer2260, I dare say that 9...Bd7 followed by 10...Kh8 and 11...Be6 seems unlikely to be best.  Computer moves relayed by a low-rated human player in a blitz time control, or some such?

The first moves 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 3.Nc3 might indeed indicate that it was a blitz game. 3.Nc3 probably expected 2...d5.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #52 - 07/12/12 at 16:48:33
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One of the reasons I liked the Qh4+ g3 Qe7 maneuver against f4 was to deny White the f3 square for his N.
  
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Stefan Buecker
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #51 - 07/12/12 at 15:11:50
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Markovich wrote on 07/12/12 at 11:21:55:
Nor is White's play particularly gambit-like, ...

This could be a compliment, right? - Later I'll return to variations. 

kylemeister wrote on 07/12/12 at 14:32:31:
Regarding bbush60854-strongplayer2260, I dare say that 9...Bd7 followed by 10...Kh8 and 11...Be6 seems unlikely to be best.  Computer moves relayed by a low-rated human player in a blitz time control, or some such?

Black's erratic play looks very much like my own when I have no good ideas. Still, it is interesting to watch this game. I am not a correspondence player, and solving practical problems like this - "should I free my position by returning the pawn, or rather sit on it?" are typical for human decision-making. Maybe it is worth a pawn to create such a dilemma for the opponent.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #50 - 07/12/12 at 14:32:31
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Regarding bbush60854-strongplayer2260, I dare say that 9...Bd7 followed by 10...Kh8 and 11...Be6 seems unlikely to be best.  Computer moves relayed by a low-rated human player in a blitz time control, or some such?
  
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Markovich
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #49 - 07/12/12 at 12:44:06
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4. f4 d5 5.exd5 Qe7 6.Bd3 exf4 7.Be4 and 7...Qe5 looks fishy to me. Better seems 7...Nf5 followed soon by ...Nf6 and I really doubt that White can justify his weird play. That e4 bishop looks pretty lousy.

Looked again and it looks playable, but sort of weird, for White. He has space with that d5 pawn, Black has the two bishops. Like 7...Nf5 8.Bxf4 Nf6 9.Bg5 Nd6 10.Bxf6 Qxf6 11.Qe2 Be7.
« Last Edit: 07/12/12 at 17:20:56 by Markovich »  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #48 - 07/12/12 at 11:21:55
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Well. what has been shown so far is that after 4.f4 d5, White at best is equal. Black indeed has several paths to this result. Nor is White's play particularly gambit-like, but more has the feel of scratching to keep up in difficult positions,

Stefan, I have never used this technique of letting the machine play out games, and I don't know that I trust it. Your argument sounds very plausible, but it wouldn't discourage me from playing straight into that position and trying to win it as Black.

In your latest line I looked at 7...f3 but 8.Nxf3 is fine for White.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #47 - 07/12/12 at 10:35:52
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I´ve rarely seen such a crazy line:

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 6. Bd3 exf4+ 7. Be4 Qh4+ 8.
Kf1 Bc5 9. Na4 Bg4 10. Qd2 Be2+ 11. Nxe2 Nf3 12. Nxc5 Nxd2+ 13. Bxd2 *
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #46 - 07/12/12 at 08:33:29
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Vass wrote on 07/12/12 at 08:19:20:
And another one.. Btw, not so many valuable games in this variation, so your analyses are starting from scratch.  Embarrassed

Thank you very much! I didn't know these games; nine games in the databases were mostly awful. The first game you gave, won by bbush60854, is very amusing - White doesn't do very much, just grabs some space and limits Black's counterplay. Nice.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #45 - 07/12/12 at 08:19:20
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And another one.. Btw, not so many valuable games in this variation, so your analyses are starting from scratch.  Embarrassed

  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #44 - 07/12/12 at 08:07:39
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I've found an interesting game in this variation.  Smiley
Hope it will help..

  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #43 - 07/12/12 at 07:47:33
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gewgaw wrote on 07/11/12 at 19:24:40:
I analysed 5. ...Qe7 a bit - looks good for Black in all lines.
1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7

An interesting idea - Smyslov_Fan's earlier proposal 5...Qh4+ 6.g3 Qe7 gives White an additional g2-g3. But the latter move may actually be useful, in some lines White's King feels the desire to flee to g2. 

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7 (gewgaw) 6.Bd3 exf4+ 7.Be4! Qe5 8.Nf3 Nxf3+ 9.Qxf3 Bd6 (9...f5 10.Bxf4 fxe4 11.Nxe4 Qxb2 12.0-0 Nf6 13.Bxc7!) 10.0-0 g5 11.g3 fxg3 12.Nb5!?

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For example: 12...gxh2+ 13.Kh1 Ne7 14.Nxd6+ cxd6 15.Bd2 f5 16.Bxg5 Rg8 17.Qh5+ Kd7 18.Bf3 Qg7 19.Bf4 Ng6 20.Bxh2 f4 21.c4 with full compensation for the sacrificed pawn. 

@Markovich: The PC checked this ending Q vs 2R for hours. Black cannot coordinate an attack with his two rooks, and at the same time control the a-pawn and shelter his own king. If Black castles short (or plays Rh6 plus Kf8), I got results like Black's king marching Kf8-g8-h8-g8-f8. Black's pawns look healthier, but dynamically he is not able to profit from it: pawn breaks are hard to achieve.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #42 - 07/12/12 at 00:11:31
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gewgaw wrote on 07/11/12 at 19:24:40:
I analysed 5. ...Qe7 a bit - looks good for Black in all lines.

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7


Interesting. What, 6.Bd3 exf4+? Since 6...Nf6 7.Nge2 Bg4 8.fxe5 Qxe5 9.Bf4 looks =.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #41 - 07/11/12 at 23:54:25
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Stefan Buecker wrote on 07/11/12 at 16:05:52:
Markovich wrote on 07/11/12 at 15:21:17:
OK, what's your opinion of 15...Rh6 16.Rac1 (I meant this move) 17...0-0-0 17.Bxa7 b6? I looked at 18.d6 Bxd6 19.Bxb6 Bxf4 20.Rfd1 Bxc1.

Exactly. My PC at first assessed it as better for Black, later it fell to a mere -0.15. Black has to watch White's a-pawn, I think that Black has nothing at all here.


Very hard to say, it seems to me. Better for White than I first thought, though. Provisionally I prefer Black, but perhaps you are right. You may have looked at it more deeply than I.
  
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Re: C25: Fyfe Gambit (The Everlasting Thread)
Reply #40 - 07/11/12 at 19:24:40
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I analysed 5. ...Qe7 a bit - looks good for Black in all lines.

1. e4 e5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. d4 Nxd4 4. f4 d5 5. exd5 Qe7
  
The older, the better - over 2200 and still rising.
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