FreeRepublic wrote on 12/10/24 at 17:00:07:

Perhaps the secret is to keep playing. Ignore computer evaluations, and trust that they will change later.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. c3 c5 6. f4 Qb6 7. Ndf3 Nc6 8. a3
Be7 9. h4 cxd4 10. cxd4 Na5 11. h5 h6 12. Kf2!? f6!?

A) 13. g4!? Nb3 14. Rb1 Nc1 15. Rc1 (15. Qc1?? fe5 16. fe5 Ne5!) Qb2 16. Kg3 Qa3 

B) 13. b4!? Nc4 14. Kg3 a5 
or 14...O-O 15. Bd3 Qc7  transposes to C below

C) 13. Kg3!? O-O 14. b4 Nc4 15. Bd3 Qc7 and Black can follow up with ...b5 or ...a5.

One sample line:
13. b4!? Nc4 14. Kg3 O-O 15. Bd3 Qc7 16. Nh3 a5 17. b5 fe5 18. fe5 Nce5 19. de5 Ne5 20. Bf4 Nf3!

FreeRepublic - As someone with a long interest in 3...Nf6 vs. the Tarrasch, I thought it would be worthwhile to look a bit further into the line in Reply #8:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nd2 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.c3 Nc6 7.Ndf3 Qb6 8.a3 Be7 9.h4 cxd4 10.cxd4 Na5 11.h5 h6 12.Ne2 Qb3 13.Qd2 Nc4 14.Qc3 Qxc3+ 15.Nxc3 Na5 16.Rb1 Nb3. (I've used 5.f4 and 6.c3 since that seems to be the more common move order). 

This line isn't covered in two of my go-to references for 3...Nf6, Watson's Play the French (4th Edition) and Berg's Grandmaster Repertoire 16: The French Defence 3. Both authors go over similar lines, but none have the same combination of a3 and h5 as the one from Reply #8. The Chessable position search doesn't turn up anything, though I found it interesting that Sielecki's Keep It Simple 1.e4 2.0 recommends the Tarrasch with 5.f4 for White. (I'm not sure if that potentially over-extended center is really keeping things simple compared to the Bd3 lines).

The Mega database had one game that follows the line through 12...Qb3, but then deviated with 13.Nc3. (Kim-Timoshenko, Agzamov Memorial 2008). In the ChessPublishing French section, Watson reaches the position after 11...h6 via transposition in his notes to Wolff-Root, US-ch Seniors, 2023, but he only mentions it as a possibility and doesn't comment on it.

However, I was able to find two correspondence games (see below) that followed the line from Reply #8. Both continued with 17.Be3, which was one of the three 17th moves suggested in your post. In Heilala-Fluit, White's 18.Kf2 isn't Stockfish's top choice (It finds 18.Nd2 to be slightly  better), and Black equalized after a few more moves. In contrast, White is able to sustain a slight edge longer in Repanic-Hauff. Clicking through the game fairly quickly, I got the impression that both sides played the engine's top move, with White's small edge eventually dwindling away. Presumably both of these games were played in competitions that allowed engine use. 

Despite Black holding the draw in both of these correspondence games, the line might still be a good try in OTB play. White retains a space advantage, and the question remains if Black's accurate, engine-assisted defense could be replicated over the board. Interestingly, Lc0 evaluated the diagrammed position in Reply #8 as equal, which seems consistent your comment in Reply #7 that Stockfish and Leela each drew the position with Black against the other engine.

[Event "EU/TC12/sf3"]
[Site "corr ICCF"]
[Date "2021.08.01"]
[Round "?.5"]
[White "Heilala, Tapio"]
[Black "Fluit, Johnny"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C05"]
[WhiteElo "2316"]
[BlackElo "2359"]
[PlyCount "50"]
[EventDate "2021.??.??"]
[SourceTitle "ICCF to 2022"]
[Source "ICCF ed Harding"]
[SourceDate "2023.10.07"]
[SourceVersion "3"]
[SourceVersionDate "2023.10.07"]
[SourceQuality "1"]
[WhiteTeam "Finland"]
[BlackTeam "Netherlands"]
[WhiteTeamCountry "FIN"]
[BlackTeamCountry "NED"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ndf3 Qb6 8. h4
Be7 9. a3 cxd4 10. cxd4 Na5 11. h5 h6 12. Ne2 Qb3 13. Qd2 Nc4 14. Qc3 Qxc3+ 15.
Nxc3 Na5 16. Rb1 Nb3 17. Be3 Nb6 18. Kf2 Bd7 19. Bd3 Rc8 20. Ne2 Nc4 21. g4 a5
22. f5 Rc6 23. Rhg1 a4 24. Rg2 Nxe3 25. Kxe3 Na5 1/2-1/2



[Event "ESP/MG6 17 (ESP)"]
[Site "corr ICCF"]
[Date "2022.12.29"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Repanic, Frane"]
[Black "Hauff, Andre"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "C05"]
[WhiteElo "2318"]
[BlackElo "2318"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[EventDate "2022.??.??"]
[EventType "tourn (corr)"]
[SourceTitle "ICCF 2023"]
[Source "ICCF ed TH"]
[SourceDate "2024.01.10"]
[SourceVersion "1"]
[SourceVersionDate "2024.01.10"]
[SourceQuality "1"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ndf3 Qb6 8. a3
Be7 9. h4 cxd4 10. cxd4 Na5 11. h5 h6 12. Ne2 Qb3 13. Qd2 Nc4 14. Qc3 Qxc3+ 15.
Nxc3 Na5 16. Rb1 Nb3 17. Be3 Nb6 18. Nd2 Nxd2 19. Bxd2 Nc4 20. Bxc4 dxc4 21.
Nb5 Kd7 22. Bb4 a6 23. Nc3 Bxb4 24. axb4 b5 25. O-O Ke7 26. Ra1 Bb7 27. f5 Rad8
28. fxe6 fxe6 29. Ne2 Rhf8 30. Nf4 Kd7 31. Kh2 Rf7 32. g3 Rdf8 33. Rfd1 Rf5 34.
Kh3 Rg5 35. Ra3 Rgf5 1/2-1/2

FreeRepublic wrote on 10/13/24 at 16:19:40:


I have the paperback version of Attacking Chess The French by Simon Williams, 2011. After 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. c3 Nc6 7. Ndf3 Qb6 8. a3, I liked his analysis of three games. However, this still looks hard for Black.

Black has not done well in 2024, =7, +19, -6. For what it's worth Stockfish played Leela two games. Each engine drew as Black.

Admin Dom : I just added ECO code at beginning of some topics in the forum... for your started topic, search for "C05"

*******************

Player Dom :

I can recommend for Black

An interesting book for this variation is 

"Attacking chess - The French" - 2011 - Simon Williams - Everyman chess - chapter 7

GM Williams (aka "gingergm") explains here some systems for White & Black. 

And only from old memories of my database and my OTB games : it is the "big clamp" line of the Nf6 tarrasch. White plays for a massive space in the center advantage, but slowing pace of development Black fights back quickly by c5/Qb6 and in some cases Bb4+  

****************

@mn : yes, Watson quote Nb3!? either in his wook and here  in chesspub updates...but I recall the warning 

"Dangerous" = dangerous for either sides (White & Black)

not, for the faint hearted. And as an other advice : not limit your choice of opening lines to the offbeat ones. The offbeat path is no guarantee of a "surprise weapon".

In Dangerous Weapons: The French , Watson recommended the line [1 e4 e6 2 d4 d5 3 Nd2 Nf6 4 e5 Nfd7 5 f4 c5] 6 Ngf3 Nc6 7 Nb3!? for White - still seems like an interesting try, depending on how you feel about spending two tempi to induce ...c4.

Hi!
I think you can find something in Moskalenko's The Even More Flexible French (games 31-34 in chapter 11) even though it is not a white repertoire per se.