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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How playable is the QGD Exchange for black? (Read 46660 times)
Nernstian59
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #83 - 12/31/21 at 03:44:10
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kylemeister wrote on 05/17/21 at 22:06:01:
By the way, a recent book in German by GM Michael Prusikin addresses the main line Exchange from a Black perspective.

A couple of things I'm a bit curious about:

--what is presented in the apparently 2 pages on how to effectively fight against the Botvinnik plan?
--what is it that he is calling the "soft" Carlsbad structure?


A recent post by tracke in the Anti-Sicilian section mentioned an upcoming book from New in Chess titled "Countering the Queen's Gambit" by GM Michael Prusikin.  This appears to be an English translation of the German-language book in kylemeister's post.  If I had known an English version was coming, I would have waited for it.  However, having the original German book does allow me to respond to the questions in the earlier post, at least within the limits of my high-school level German and Google translate:

1) The two pages against the Botvinnik plan are devoted to the game Dejan Nestorovic - Miodrag Savic SRB Central-ch op-A Paracin 2015.  This game features a relatively early ...b7-b5 in order to drive back White's c3 knight with ...b5-b4.  However, this isn't the recommendation in Prusikin's theoretical section, which goes for the trendy ...h6 and ...Nh5 plan.

2) Prusikin says the term "soft" Carlsbad structure is his own invention.  It's his unofficial name for the structure with Black pawns on a7, b6, c6, and d5, which typically arises after White plays cxd5 in the Tartakower Variation.   

Note: I had to remove the link to Prusikin's "Das Damengambit" in kylemeister's message since I can't yet put up posts containing links.
« Last Edit: 12/31/21 at 23:30:35 by Nernstian59 »  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #82 - 12/28/21 at 00:02:23
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GM Justin Tan analyzes Carlsen-Frouzja and Caruana-Asadi in the December 21 edition of ChessPublishing. He states "The classical QGD move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 has seen something of a resurgence recently, as modern engines and theoreticians have been showing that Black’s position remains solid after 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5." Games and analysis include ...h6 for black.

It's my recollection that the natural ...h6 was once rejected in favor of Nbd7-Nf8 because black hoped to play Re8-e6-h6. Nice idea, but it hardly ever happens. More recent theory has black playing ...g6, intending ...Bf5 at some point, with a knight on g7 or d6 for support. The plan is positionally well motivated but takes time.

...h6 at some point is getting more time in the theory limelight. It will be a while before I can integrate these two games and GM Tan's analysis with my own. In the mean time, I would like to build on some analysis previously presented on this thread.

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nf3 h6 9. Bf4. Here I suggested c5 for black. Fans of the Tarrasch Defense should take a look at this position. You can basically treat it as a tabiya position and improvise from here. One example:
9...c5 10. dc5 Bc5 11. O-O Nc6 12. h3 a6 13. Rc1 Ba7 14. Ne2 
The computer says White has an advantage, but I think that is just because black has an isolated queen pawn. The engine now suggests 14...Qb6. More natural to me is 14...Ne4. Playing on with either move, the engine eventually sees equal chances.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #81 - 10/20/21 at 18:40:39
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I am always amazed how big club players think the advantage for white is in the Carlsbad structure. The majority don't have the technical skills to produce a win from a minority attack. In addition to h6, Bh4 Nh5 which has been scoring well for black, in high level games recently, there is 1.d4 d5 2c4 e6 3Nc3 Nf6 4pxp Nxd5. 
           This leads to semi-tarrasch type positions. Kramnik and others have done a good job showing it is not trivial for white to find an advantage here either,
  
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FreeRepublic
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #80 - 09/09/21 at 13:25:50
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MNb wrote on 09/08/21 at 06:40:41:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995)


9...c5 may also be worth a try.

After 9Nge2, the game can proceed in many ways. This is just one, from ChessPublishing:
"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Nge2 c6 9. Qc2 Nbd7 10. O-O Nf8 11. f3 Ng6 12. Rad1 h6, which actually isn't a pawn sacrifice but it feels quite artificial, 13. Bf6 Bf6 14. Bg6 fg6 15. e4"

Now either ...dxe 16fxe Bg5, or 15...Bg5 16f4 Be7 seem very reasonable for black.
  
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MNb
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #79 - 09/08/21 at 06:40:41
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/07/21 at 21:12:49:
Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Bg5 Be7 6.e3 O-O 7.Bd3 Re8 8.Nf3 h6 9.Bh4 (9.Bf4 Nh5 10.Be5 Nc6 went well for Black in Koczka-Pastor, HUNchT 1995) c6 idea 10...Ne4 or 10...Bg4 looks hard to meet for White. If this is correct only 8.Nge2 remains.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #78 - 09/07/21 at 21:12:49
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tony37 wrote on 09/07/21 at 13:06:59:
then there's 8.Nf3


You have a point there.

Let's go back to the post by alyechin:

"1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!"

According to my data base, white's most common eighth move is 8Qc2. This is even true in recent years and with players rated over 2400.

However, unlike 8Nf3 and 8Nge2, it does not support the d pawn or prepare 0-0. Perhaps black's nuanced move order, delaying or avoiding ...c6, requires a nuanced reply, delaying or avoiding Qc2.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #77 - 09/07/21 at 15:07:18
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

Good point. As White I have always played it with the knight on e2, but I should have thought of that. Black may be able to avoid White's usual Nf3 based setups this way.
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #76 - 09/07/21 at 13:06:59
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/06/21 at 13:07:25:
I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.

then there's 8.Nf3...
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #75 - 09/06/21 at 13:07:25
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Stigma wrote on 09/05/21 at 20:02:39:
So how does 8.Nge2 change things?

I think it is a good answer to the ...h6, early ...c5 idea. However it is committal. White might have wanted to play a line with Nf3 instead.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #74 - 09/05/21 at 20:02:39
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/03/21 at 18:57:17:
alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8. Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?


That is new to me and looks very promising. Thanks.

Without taking a stand on how good this is, White has played a move order where Qc2 can be delayed further or even skipped altogether.

So how does 8.Nge2 change things? On the face of it 8...h6 9.Bh4 c5 looks riskier there, with White one move closer to castling and d5 tactically weak due to Bh7+ discovered attacks.

Maybe Black's point is 8.Nge2 Ne4 or 8...h6 9.Bh4 Ne4 instead?
  

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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #73 - 09/03/21 at 18:57:17
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alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?


That is new to me and looks very promising. Thanks.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #72 - 09/03/21 at 18:56:12
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kylemeister wrote on 09/02/21 at 23:40:54:
of an article in the latest CBM, which attributes it to Eliskases.


I don't subscribe to CBM, but would be interested to know their opinion.

According to my data base (Chess Assistant) Eliskases played the line once, in 1951. It was first played by Gosta Stoltz in 1932, also one game. I'm not sure the line is properly named.

Guillermo Soppe played this line 15 times as black between 1989 and 2004. He lost one game (to Quinteros), won seven, and drew 7. Perhaps we should call it the Soppe variation.
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #71 - 09/03/21 at 15:35:23
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alyechin wrote on 09/03/21 at 07:12:14:
Very playable:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?

An old ECO/Informant bit even had 9...c5 as "!".
  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #70 - 09/03/21 at 07:12:14
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Very playable:

1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Re8 8.
Qc2 h6 9. Bh4 c5!?

  
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Re: How playable is the QGD Exchange for black?
Reply #69 - 09/02/21 at 23:40:54
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FreeRepublic wrote on 09/02/21 at 20:49:27:
1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Nbd7 5. cxd5 exd5 6. Bg5 c6 7. e3 Be7 8. Qc2 O-O 9. Bd3 Re8 10. O-O g6

I noticed that that is the subject of an article in the latest CBM, which attributes it to Eliskases.
  
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