Sometimes we just go round in circles...

We've already discussed the merits of 4.c4 some time ago in the thread

"How does White confront the French?" on page 5.

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1102647301;start=all

There I concluded:

<< Finally here's what the French defence expert Lev Psakhis says about 4 c4 in one of his recent books:
"An interesting move which radically alters the pawn structure and considerably reduces the drawish factors that are so characteristic of this variation (the Exchange Variation). White can scarcely reckon on an advantage, especially against accurate play by Black, yet he does undoubtedly set his opponent some problems."

So we can be sure that the line is perfectly playable and sets some problems. It also avoids the typical blocked French positions and will usually produce just one type of position - an IQP. So for anyone who likes open games, especially IQP positions with White (and learns how to handle them properly), it might prove a useful weapon against the French. Certainly some of my students like it and score well with it.>>

dom,

Your specific lines agree with my general feeling that 4.c4 is not such a dangerous weapon for White.  Black has at least two main ways to gain counterplay, and perhaps even take over the initiative.  Even in blitz games, I have rarely had any difficulty with this line.  Yet there are a large number of junior players who have picked this (the French Exchange with 4.c4) up in my area.  Is the French Exchange becoming popular in France, too?

@dsanchez: another post for the other line..

The line is given by Neven: 4.c4  Nf6 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bd3 Nc6!? (6...c6!? transposes to my previous post) 7.cxd5 Nxd5 8.Nge2 and now Neven doesn't give 8...Bg4, but 8...oo 9.oo Bg4 10.h3 Bxe2 11.Nxe2 Bf6 =  Wolf-Heyken,Allemagne 1988 (Neven)

And the answer to the question: why White plays 10.h3 and not 10.f3 ? the answer is 10...Be6 ; White weakens his kingside and if there is an exhange on d5 square Black takes on d5 with the queen at the end, the pawn d4 is under attack, hence Ne2 can't move easily

If Black plays the system with Nf6-Be7 and the ideas above, it's maybe passive, but safe and very solid.

MNb wrote on 06/27/06 at 01:34:45:


Thanks for the reply.  I think I was making a big deal about a very small issue.  Your point that White need not transpose to the Danish Gambit was clear enough if I'd given it a bit of thought.

I guess the idea of delaying Nf3 also comes into play in the Danish Gambit itself (most games where I answered the Danish Gambit with ...d5 just transposed into the corresponding Goering Gambit line after Nf3 so I don't have much in the way of direct experience).  

E.g., after 1.e4 e5 2.d4 exd4 3.c3 d5 4.exd5 Qxd5 5.cxd4 White could answer 5...Nc6 with 6.Be3 instead of 6.Nf3.  I imagine this has been discussed in the 1.e4 e5 section...

(I will look, and not complain about the time I spent looking.  )

I used to play this and at one time spent some time studying it with an FM.

GM Maurice Ashley used to play this with some regularity, and you might find some ideas in his games.  I think IM Josh Waitzkin also used to play it.

I don't have my French book handy -- I don't think Watson gives it much coverage, maybe only a couple of columns.  I'll try to look it up tonight.

I am not sure what Black's best plan is, except to keep in mind typical IQP ideas.  I gave up playing it as White because I don't believe White gets the dynamic benefits from the IQP that he gets in some other IQP openings.  Not sure why that is.  Maybe because White's pressure on the c-file is not as meaningful as pressure on the e-file.  Also, it seems to me White's pieces are not very well coordinated in this line.

If Black can manage to exchange light-squared bishops, that should be a pretty nice positional victory for him, I think.

One main idea for White is to play a setup with Bd3 and Nge2.  Then  White can try to bury Black's bishop with f3, Ng3, and f4, f5.

E.g.: 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.ed ed 4.c4 c6 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bd3 Be7 7.Nge2 0-0 8.0-0 dc 9.Bxc4 Nbd7 10.Bb3 Nb6 11.Re1 Bf5 12.Ng3 Bg6 13.f4

Similar ideas can be found in the Caro-Kann.

I also believe we decided  4...Nf6 was probably Black's best.  A lot of players will unthinkingly play 4...Bb4+, which probably is inaccurate. 5.Nc3 Be7 6.Bd3 Nc6

Now if White plays the natural 7.Nge2 to protect the d-pawn, then 7...Nb4!.  Therefore better for Whtie is  7.cd Nxd5 8.Nge2 Bg4 9.f3 Bh5 and Black threatens to exchange White's best piece. So,

10.Be4!? Nf6 11.Bxc6+ and I guess your assessment depends on if you prefer the bishops or the pawn structure.

If you like relaxed play, play Nf6, Be7 and then the moves (in no particular order so you have to figure that out behind the board) c6, Be6 (g4), 0-0, Nbd7, dxc4, Nd5 and Ndf6 (or b6) followed by blocking up d5 and play vs the IQP. Couple of things to keep in mind in this variation.
-Dont play dxc4 before white has moved his f1-bishop, otherwise you'll lose a tempo.
-White's main plan is an attack on the kingside, so always keep that in mind, but dont go into "coward" mode by playing moves like h6 too early, that ususally helps white.
-Exchanginge light pieces good, exchanging heavy pieces bad

MNb wrote on 06/26/06 at 01:19:09:


If the thread exists, it's not easy to find.  Any chance of coming up with a link to it?

If there was anything approximating a debate on this line, one would think the thread would be easy to find - so I won't be holding my breath waiting for someone to come up with the link.  

Should the actually thread turn up, I wonder if it would have anything to do with the main point of my previous post which was simply this: in the line given by dom, 7...Bg4 is a much better move than 7...Nf6.

4...Nc6 looks unusual.  I used to play the French Defense and don't recall seeing this recommended anywhere.  Of course, this doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the move - just that it looks odd (to me at least).

An interesting thing about the following line:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. exd5 exd5 4. c4 Nc6 5. cxd5 Qxd5 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Nf3

is that it leads to the exact same position as:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. c3 d5 5. exd5 Qxd5 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nc3

which is a line I've played a number of times againt the Goering Gambit.

(MNb: you can see that this discussion gets moved to the 1. e4 e5 section if it is too upsetting to continue it here.  )


Here dom gives 7...Nf6 which, in my opinion, seems to be somehwat inferior to 7...Bg4 recommended by theory.

After 7...Bg4 the main line continues

8. Be2 Bxf3 9. Bxf3 Qc4 10. Bxc6+ bxc6 11. Qe2+ Qxe2+ 12. Kxe2 Ne7 13. Be3 O-O-O (=/+ according to NCO, but closer to = according to Emms in Play the Open Games as Black.)

Anyway, just wanted to point out an amusing transposition which suggests an improvement on one of dom's lines.