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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd (Read 344393 times)
986
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #46 - 07/16/06 at 20:58:49
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We can always transpose to your last diagramm  Wink but we have the option playing the poisened pawn variation of the french Smiley

Here some analyse:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Be2?! [ 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qxb6 see your last analyse diagramm( 12.0-0-0;  12.Nb5;  12.Qd2!? an interesting option first played by Kasparov) ] 9...0-0 10.Qd2 [ 10.0-0 Nunn] 10...Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.Qxd4 Qb6 What's the difference to 9.Qd2? White can't play 'the deferred poisened pawn variation of the french defence.(because black has castled) White has developed his bishop but it's not clear that e2 is the best place. It seems better to me if white had instead played h4 or another 'waiting move' to see where the bishop belongs. Line




  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #45 - 07/16/06 at 17:59:24
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986 wrote on 07/03/06 at 21:05:21:
@Smyslov_Fan I'd love to play the white side of the French Steinitz. I will help Ostap to destroy your French defense Wink Smiley

Cheers,
Tom

(above quote from the Discussion section)

Tom,
Coming through on your earlier promise, I see!  Smiley

Thanks for the Carlsen game!  I like this gambit line a lot (though I'm not yet 100% convinced of it's soundness) and may well opt to go this direction is Smyslov_Fan is game (of course, Black has some other good options before we get to 12.Qd2).

I'm still considering 9.Be2 at this stage, which is also interesting (albeit less exciting than the gambit line!).
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #44 - 07/16/06 at 11:14:40
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Qd2!  Smiley

Carlsen,M (2646) - Prasca Sosa,R (2448) [C11]
Turin ol (Men) 37th Turin (6), 21.05.2006

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qd2 Qxb2 13.Rb1 Qa3 14.Nb5 Qxa2 15.Nd6+ Ke7 16.Rc1 b6 17.Be2 Qa5 18.c3 f5 19.0-0 Qc5+ 20.Kh1 Nf8 21.g4 Bd7 22.gxf5 exf5 23.Bf3 Ng6 24.c4 d4 25.Nb7 Qa3 26.Qxd4 Be6 27.Ra1 Qb3 28.Qd6+ Kf7 29.Bd5 Bxd5+ 30.Qxd5+ Ke7 31.Qd6+ Ke8 32.Qe6+ Ne7 33.Nd6+ 1-0

Cool
Tom

  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #43 - 07/16/06 at 04:56:21
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Quote:
Right now I am grappling with a difficult decision in the other game of my 'simul'... 
 
http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151879306/71#71


My cunning plan is working!  He won't be able to think about two games at once.  

Oh wait, I've been thinking about his games too.   Embarrassed
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #42 - 07/16/06 at 04:22:32
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Now I have a decision to make between the relatively rare 9.NBe2 and the more common 9.Qd2.  I will give this one some consideration and welcome any guidance while I pobnder.

Right now I am grappling with a difficult decision in the other game of my 'simul'...

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151879306/71#71
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #41 - 07/16/06 at 04:03:17
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Thanks again to those who have made suggestions.  Please keep them coming! Cool

I'm going to forge on, despite my critics and with a wave of my hand to my friend(s).

The moves so far are:

1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4

And my move is 

8...Bc5

I'm getting worried that at some point one of us (that is, me) will send out a typo.  The B and N are right next to each other on the keyboard. 
Smiley
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5
Reply #40 - 07/15/06 at 12:49:41
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8...Qb6? not the best move in my view, 
8...Bc5 Mainline
8...Nc5!? looks interesting and scores well
8...Nxd4?! perhaps better than its reputation
8...Nb6?! looks strange
8...Be7 Qg4 with advantage for white?

Smiley
Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #39 - 07/15/06 at 06:55:20
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Ostap, 

Thanks for showing me 9.Be2.

I had played against it a few times in blitz, but my opponents clearly didn't have the skill/understanding to make the move interesting.  I'm going to have to consider that before my next move which I'll make in about 20 hours.  That should give enough time for some others to comment.

Cheers! Smiley
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #38 - 07/14/06 at 22:28:44
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According to Nunn (Understanding Chess Move by Move):
8...Bc5 9. Be2!? O-O 10.O-O runs into Qb6 11.Na4 Bxd4! 12.Nxb6 Bxe3+ 13.Kh1 Bxb6 with an excellent position for Black. Although three minor pieces have the same 'point value' as a queen, in most middlegame positions they are far superior.

(this variation given in the note to White's 9th move in the game Kasparov-Short, Amsterdam VSB (2) 1994.)

10.Qd2 (defending e3) looks like a possible improvement:

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Be2 O-O 10. Qd2 a6 11. O-O 

(11. O-O-O Bxd4 12. Bxd4 b5 13. Bf3 b4 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Bb7 16. Bb2 Qc7 17. h4 a5 18. h5 Ne7 19. g4 Bc6 20. f5 Nxe5 21. Be2 Bxa4 22. f6 gxf6 23. Qh6 Rfc8 24. Rd2 Be8 25. Qxf6 N7c6 26. h6 Kf8 27. Bb5 d4 28. Re1 Qd6 29. g5 Ng6 30. Qg7+ Ke7 31. Qf6+ Kf8 32. Bd3 Qf4 33. Qg7+ Ke7 34. Qxh7 Qxg5 35. Qg7 Qf6 36. Bxg6 Qxg6 37. Bxd4 Nxd4 38. Qxd4 Rc6 39. Qh4+ f6 40. h7 Bf7 1-0 Arakhamia Grant-Zaitseva, Cetinje 1991) 

11... Nxd4 12. Bxd4 Qb6 13. Bxc5 Qxc5+ 14. Kh1 Nb6 15. a4 Bd7 16. a5 Nc4 17. Bxc4 Qxc4 18. f5 exf5 19. Nxd5 Rad8 20. Rf4 Qc5 21. b4 Qa7 22. Ne7+ Kh8 23. Rd4 1-0 Van der Wiel-Peek, Netherlands 1987

  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #37 - 07/14/06 at 21:33:49
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MNb wrote on 07/14/06 at 20:54:10:
I will punish S_F for making his choice by joining Ostapbender.

Things are looking up for me. Smiley

SF, shunning the Winawer is bad enough, but this Vacuum-Cleaner Variation is pushing things just too far - for shame!  Defend the cause of fraternity, egality and solidarity?  Bah!  You may yet rue the day you decided to align your fate with this reprehensible, minor-piece-killing idea.  Roll Eyes

(I think I'd better stop babbling before MNb changes his mind  Wink)

Quote:
I hope he will avoid the Vacuum Cleaner Variation with 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Be2!? or with the gambit 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qd2!?


MNb, I know the gambit line you refer to (12.Qd2 sacrificing two pawns after 12...Qxb2 13.Rb1 Qa3 14.Nb5 Qxa2 which looks unclear but very interesting; without a doubt White has a lot of compensation), but I am unfamiliar with 9.Be2.

12.Qd2 is already a strong consideration, but I'd like to hear more about 9.e2.  Any good model games?


  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #36 - 07/14/06 at 20:54:10
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I will punish S_F for making his choice by joining Ostapbender. I hope he will avoid the Vacuum Cleaner Variation with 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Be2!? or with the gambit 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qd2!?
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #35 - 07/14/06 at 14:43:53
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I'm going to wait a while to respond so I can get some more suggestions.  Maybe I can avoid your epitaph position!
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #34 - 07/14/06 at 14:43:19
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Hello,

   There are some quite interesting lines after 8... Qb6. The game below, is probably the most well-known
[Site "San Francisco"]
[Date "1995.02.??"]
[Round "5"]
[White "Huebner,Robert"]
[Black "Kortschnoj,Viktor"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C11"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Qb6 
9.Ncb5 a6 10.Nf5 Bc5 11.Bxc5 Nxc5 12.Nbd6+ Kf8 13.Qh5 Nd8 14.Nxg7 Qb4+ 15.c3 Qxb2 16.Rd1 Qxc3+ 
17.Rd2 h6 18.Nge8 Ne4 0-1

9.Qd2 is probably the critical line. I tried to help a friend prepare this line for the British Championship in Swansea, around this time. A quick check shows players like Volkov are still playing this line, so maybe not refuted. 

Bye John S
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #33 - 07/14/06 at 09:01:10
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/14/06 at 05:26:19:
NB: Hansard's is the official record for the British Parliament and has been for at least 200 years now.  It's a great read!


It can be quite entertaining - but it's just Hansard.

7...cxd4 - good choice ... if it's good enough for Watson it's good enough for me ...
  
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Re: Steinitz:  1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd
Reply #32 - 07/14/06 at 06:10:12
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Yikes!

So, it looks like it may be the dreaded Vacuum-Cleaner after all!  My hopes were raised momentarily when you showed an interest in the delicious bait that MNb dangled in front of you...

Well, at least my next move is simple enough to find.  Undaunted by the catcalls, I swiftly reply 8.Nxd4.  The game is afoot! (or something like that  Wink)

So we have:
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1bqkb1r/pp1n1ppp/2n1p3/3...

  and, after the vacuuming it will be
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=6k1/3b1ppp/pK1Np3/1p1pP3/...
  analysis positionepitaph Wink

Cheers!  Smiley
« Last Edit: 07/14/06 at 20:09:04 by OstapBender »  
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