Here is one line that looks nasty for Black:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ (I have also looked at 5.d4 but am not impressed by White's extra pawn after d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd5 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Qxd8 Nxd8) Ke7 6.Bb3 (maybe not better than 6.Bd5, but certainly simpler: Rf8 7.0-0 d6 8.c3 Bg4 9.Qb3 h6 10.Qxb7) and here Black usually plays the moves d6, Qe8 and Rf8 in some order. White has a solid plan against all and in fact only has to remember the line d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Qe2 followed by Nc3 and 0-0-0. Black faces the prospect to play for a draw for another 40 moves or so by exchanging all pieces. White will avoid this and enjoy his centre domination. His/her advantage might not be that great, but it's there to last. If this would be the worst White can get after 4.Ng5 I would start playing it immediately. In other words, I think this line shows that 4...Bc5 is inferior to 4...d5.

I would play CC game v Traxler, but refuse to be forced into a line choice just so Black can prove something in a variation that is clearly not White's best choice.

So, if anyone is interested in playing CC from the Starting position of the Traxler 4. ....Bc5, I'm in.


Otherwise, maintaining that Black is for choice in this line is all just self flagellation at this point, to me.

It looks like the white team is in trouble, as I certainly would mind defending White's case after 5.Nxf7/9.d6 and I would even more mind defending 7.Ke3.

condor wrote on 11/30/08 at 16:33:23:


That's OK, but

TonyRo wrote on 11/30/08 at 17:03:17:


this is what I understood as well.

I wouldn't say "no" to join your team as Black, because I like that sort of challenges, but if we reach the position I spoke after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6, I wonder how we will decide between the 2 mains and différents choice: 9..cxd6 or 9..Qxd6.
But the only time I had the chance to play that line in corr I choose 9..Qxd6 and I had an exchange down without enough compensation after 9.d6 Qxd6 10.Nf7 Qc5 11.d3 Bh4 12.b4 Qe7 13.Nd2 Bg4 14.Nf3 Bxf3 15.gxf3 b5 16.Bb3 Bxb3 17.axb3 Kxf7 18.Bd2 so unless you find an improvment as Black here, I would vote for 9..cxd6.

There is lots of analysis on Bd5 and Ke3 which you can search for already. Why do I have spend my time showing it to you?

Sure, I'd like a correspondence game with Kf1 or Ke3, as long as its not me against Arkhein, MNb, TonyRo, edgy, trw, and Markovich and I actually have someone willing to join me defending it.

As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.

condor wrote on 11/29/08 at 15:53:17:

You can take your medicine safely, as this is what I have done since about 1982.

Frankly, whoever has to have every single variation pre-chewed by theory before playing a sharp line, I pity you. If you want certainty in every single line, then I'm not prepared to waste my time mollyifying you. 

Try exploring yourself! It is a tactical opnening that benefits from human imagination on both sides. I'm sick of lazy people who watch the dial on Fritz then demand to know where the immediate compensation is in every single line without bothering to explore themselves. If you're that lazy, conservative and unimganiative, stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.

edgy wrote on 11/25/08 at 21:50:31:


I quote edgy here because his view is my view exactly.   

Condor, I can only say that your understanding of the theory of this variation is quite different from mine if you think that the repute of 4.Bxf7+ Ke7 5.Bb3 is low.  It appears that we also differ in our understanding of chess itself if Black's game after 5...d6 6.d3 is one that you would willingly take up.

What rejoinders you are likely to encounter in your games bear only upon whether you personally should play the Traxler, not whether this system is objectively good.  I personally would never prepare a system that I considered to be unsound, in which category I include systems that lead to not obviously drawn pawn-down endings.

Parenthetically, if you think that everyone who plays 4.Ng5 is looking to indulge Black's lust for a red-meat attacking game, you're wrong.  As I said, 4.Ng5 is White's best and most critical move, and it's one that any strong opponent should be expected to play (granted, many strong players would rather just skip the whole discussion and play 4.d3).  Equally I rather suspect you will find an extreme shortage of strong opponents who will venture 4.Nxf7.   

Also I said that Black has at best a half-pawn's comp after 6.d3.