Here is one line that looks nasty for Black:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ (I have also looked at 5.d4 but am not impressed by White's extra pawn after d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd5 7.dxc5 Nc6 8.Qxd8 Nxd8) Ke7 6.Bb3 (maybe not better than 6.Bd5, but certainly simpler: Rf8 7.0-0 d6 8.c3 Bg4 9.Qb3 h6 10.Qxb7) and here Black usually plays the moves d6, Qe8 and Rf8 in some order. White has a solid plan against all and in fact only has to remember the line d6 7.d3 Qe8 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Qe2 followed by Nc3 and 0-0-0. Black faces the prospect to play for a draw for another 40 moves or so by exchanging all pieces. White will avoid this and enjoy his centre domination. His/her advantage might not be that great, but it's there to last. If this would be the worst White can get after 4.Ng5 I would start playing it immediately. In other words, I think this line shows that 4...Bc5 is inferior to 4...d5.

I would play CC game v Traxler, but refuse to be forced into a line choice just so Black can prove something in a variation that is clearly not White's best choice.

So, if anyone is interested in playing CC from the Starting position of the Traxler 4. ....Bc5, I'm in.


Otherwise, maintaining that Black is for choice in this line is all just self flagellation at this point, to me.

It looks like the white team is in trouble, as I certainly would mind defending White's case after 5.Nxf7/9.d6 and I would even more mind defending 7.Ke3.

condor wrote on 11/30/08 at 16:33:23:


That's OK, but

TonyRo wrote on 11/30/08 at 17:03:17:


this is what I understood as well.

I wouldn't say "no" to join your team as Black, because I like that sort of challenges, but if we reach the position I spoke after 5.Nxf7 Bxf2+ 6.Kf1 Qe7 7.Nxh8 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd4 9.d6, I wonder how we will decide between the 2 mains and différents choice: 9..cxd6 or 9..Qxd6.
But the only time I had the chance to play that line in corr I choose 9..Qxd6 and I had an exchange down without enough compensation after 9.d6 Qxd6 10.Nf7 Qc5 11.d3 Bh4 12.b4 Qe7 13.Nd2 Bg4 14.Nf3 Bxf3 15.gxf3 b5 16.Bb3 Bxb3 17.axb3 Kxf7 18.Bd2 so unless you find an improvment as Black here, I would vote for 9..cxd6.

There is lots of analysis on Bd5 and Ke3 which you can search for already. Why do I have spend my time showing it to you?

Sure, I'd like a correspondence game with Kf1 or Ke3, as long as its not me against Arkhein, MNb, TonyRo, edgy, trw, and Markovich and I actually have someone willing to join me defending it.

As for Bb3 and d3, I've told you: until every other person plays it I'm much more interested in style and interest rather than a possible half-point disadvantage.

condor wrote on 11/29/08 at 15:53:17:

You can take your medicine safely, as this is what I have done since about 1982.

Frankly, whoever has to have every single variation pre-chewed by theory before playing a sharp line, I pity you. If you want certainty in every single line, then I'm not prepared to waste my time mollyifying you. 

Try exploring yourself! It is a tactical opnening that benefits from human imagination on both sides. I'm sick of lazy people who watch the dial on Fritz then demand to know where the immediate compensation is in every single line without bothering to explore themselves. If you're that lazy, conservative and unimganiative, stick to something safe like d5. Then you can see the compensation right in front of your nose.

edgy wrote on 11/25/08 at 21:50:31:


I quote edgy here because his view is my view exactly.   

Condor, I can only say that your understanding of the theory of this variation is quite different from mine if you think that the repute of 4.Bxf7+ Ke7 5.Bb3 is low.  It appears that we also differ in our understanding of chess itself if Black's game after 5...d6 6.d3 is one that you would willingly take up.

What rejoinders you are likely to encounter in your games bear only upon whether you personally should play the Traxler, not whether this system is objectively good.  I personally would never prepare a system that I considered to be unsound, in which category I include systems that lead to not obviously drawn pawn-down endings.

Parenthetically, if you think that everyone who plays 4.Ng5 is looking to indulge Black's lust for a red-meat attacking game, you're wrong.  As I said, 4.Ng5 is White's best and most critical move, and it's one that any strong opponent should be expected to play (granted, many strong players would rather just skip the whole discussion and play 4.d3).  Equally I rather suspect you will find an extreme shortage of strong opponents who will venture 4.Nxf7.   

Also I said that Black has at best a half-pawn's comp after 6.d3.

condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 20:49:22:


I consider any Black opening inferior that leads to an advantage for White bigger than his right to move first. In other words, if the worst Black can get is less than a pawn's worth of compensation that means that 4...d5 is the better move. So it is useless to discuss what degree of disadvantage means that the Traxler is unsound.
Imo the road to a solid, lasting advantage against the Traxler is indeed characterized by taking just a pawn and ignoring all the other material gains. Instead White must focus on stabilizing his position, completing his development and then opening the centre with either c3 and d4 or even with f2-f4.
Beljavsky has drawn against Karpov and Anand with the Traxler. Playing through his two games shows what an uphill struggle that is. If not unsound playing like that is unattractive.

Markovich,

I have yet to decide on the best response to d3 but IF the worst black has is less than a pawn's worth of compensation, you can hardly consider it unsound.

You don't need to wish it be sound. As I said, you won't refute it, maybe claim a slight advantage in some lines. Why not enjoy it? It will be around for a long time yet because of the reasons I suggested. 

I'm still dubious about Bb3. I have read so many varied refutations from nearly every single angle. Why has it taken so long to consider Bb3 and d3 and what makes it especially threatening?

condor wrote on 11/25/08 at 17:03:05:


I prefer 7.d3 for White in this line.

If White wants to play 7.Nf7 then I think after 7. ...Qf8 White again plays 8.d3 and can hold even after grabbing the rook on the next move, but its a thin edge to walk across.

7. d3 and some knowledge and Black is in a not-so-good way. 

trw wrote on 11/25/08 at 06:03:52:


Would you please clarify what you mean by your last sentence?

condor wrote on 11/22/08 at 19:35:56:


Why even type this? Prove it. I think 6. Bb3 is incredibly annoying for Black. I want the Traxler to be good so badly, but I've never seen anything convincing after 6. Bb3. 

7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 9.Kxe4 is very interesting I played this against Sigma: 7…d5 8 Bxd5 Qc5 then: (excuse the move numbers)

1. Bxc6+ Qxc6+ 2. Ke3 Rf8 3. Nxe5 Qh6+ 4. Kd3 Qa6+ 5. Nc4 Bf5+ 6. Kc3 O-O-O 7. d3 b5 8. Ne3 b4+ 9. Kd2 Bxd3 10. Ke1 Qc6 11. Rg1 Bf5 12. Bd2 Rfe8 
(going straight into)
2. Qe2 Bxc2 3. Qg4+ Rd7 4. Rf1 Qh6 5. Qf3 Be4 6. Qf2 Qg6 7. Qf4 Bxb1 8. Qxb4 Rd6 9. Qc5 a6 10. b4 Qe4 11. Rg1 Rc6 12. Qg5 Rd6 13. Qh5 Rxd2 14. Qxe8+
Qxe8 15. Kxd2 Qd8+ 16. Ke1 Bd3 17. Rd1 Qd4 18. Rxd3 Qxd3 with an eventually won game for black.

It took (and often takes) ages to find the correct strategy. People who call the Traxler simply tactical don't really understand it. It has its own unique (if anyone can find a similar opening, tell me) strategies.

People have to accept: the Traxler is never going to be refuted.

After 5 Bxf7 Ke7 6 Bd5 black equalizes or reaches an unclear game.

After 6 Bb3 d6!? , it is white who is in trouble.

After 5 Nxf7 Bxf2 6 Kxf2 Nxe4 7 Kg1 Black has a forced draw at worst.

After 6 Kf1 white will be lucky to draw, the same with 7 Ke3

The best white has is a possible tiny endgame advantage after 5 d4 d5 6 dxc5 dxc4 7 Qxd8 Nxd8 (unless black can cheekily try Kxd8). In my worst nightmares white players will start doing this.

In agreement with Tarrasch, 4 Ng5 is a flawed attack which deserves to get beaten back. But, only the very best play will prove Tarrasch right.

Why not play white without the arrogant "Oh, I'm going to refute (just like the Dragon or KID) a 120 year old opening"? Simply enjoy testing each others respective attacking and defensive abilities to the absolute limit; that is the real point of the opening.

Nice hint, thanks

Quote:



No i've  missed this one, it's probably better but black still fight for the draw.

Otherwise  i've begun some researchs in the line 7.Ke3 Qh4 8.g3 Qe7 9.Ke4 

 I've seen somewhere on the web that pierre Meinshon (a french FM) recommend  9...Rf8 but it's only a table of contents so i can't tell you more

A recent game with the line 13.Bb3 play with the  very sympathique John
   Elburg,John- Dji   corr. Thematic Traxler 02/2006
   13.Bb3 Rf7 14.Qg1 Qe5 15.Nc3 Ne7!? my novelty but maybe christophe Nirav's 15...g5! is stronger
16.d3 ed3 17.Rf4! Bf5 18.Qe3! Qd6 19.g4 Bg6 20.Rf7 Bf7 21.Qd3 c6 22.Qg3 Qd7 23.Be3 Be6 24.Rf1 Bg4 25.Ne4 Qe6 26.Ng5 Nf5 27.Ne6 Ng3 28.Kg3 Be6 29.Re1 Kf7 30.c3 b6 31.Bc2 h6 32.Bd4 c5 33.Be5 Rd8 34.Rf1+ Kg8 35.Rf4 Rd7 36.Rf2  and in this unclear position we agreed a draw!

I think 6.b4 is not the most difficult reply to handle. My own preference is 6....Nxb4.
Now white has two reasonable answers:

variation I
7.Bb3 when 7....d5 should give black reasonable play:
8.0-0?!, Bg4! 9.Qe1,h6 10.Nf3,Bxf3 with a comfortable position for black

variation II (the original Schmidt-attack)
7.d4!?, Bxd4 8.c3, Bc5 9.cxb4, Bd4! 10.Bb3,Rf8 11.f4,d6 12.fxe5,Bxe5 13.Nf7,Rxf7 14.Bxf7, Bxa1
Black is somewhat better (Schmidt-Augustat, corr. 1981, 0-1 (29)). 
This game is a fine example of precomputer correspondence play by both players. 
=============================================================
On the variation 
5.....Bxf2+ 6.Kxf2+,Nxe4+ 7.Ke3

7.Ke3, Qe7 8.Nxh8 (8.Kxe4 is refuted by d5+) ,d5 9.Qg6+ was considered a refutation I think.
I dont quit see how things would be improved by 
7.Ke3, Qh4 8.g3,Qe7 , as after 9.Kxe4,d5+ 10.Bxd5 the attack with Qh4+ is no longer available.

My own preference as black was for 
7.Ke3,Qh4 8.g3.Nxg3 9.hxg3,Qd4+ 10.Kf3,d5 11.Rh4,e4+ 12.Kg2,0-0
although my personal opinion is that white is objectively a little better after
13. Bb3 (instead of 13.Nc3).

I am interested if anything new has been found, as I played a number of correspondence TGT-tournaments with the traxler around 1998.

I think that after 
5 Bxf7+ Ke7 Schmid's attack is unjustly neglected
My only experience with Traxler was in a ICCF Thematic , where I played 6 b4!?
All the authors prefer ?! , but they don't agree about  a refutation : 
Bxb4 , Nxb4 , Bd4 , or Bxf2+ ( Estrin's choice and that of my opponent ) Which to choose ?

Are you 100% sure?   Do you have any idea, when he will update this stuff in part 13 of that excellent column Hard Chess?

When I said just, I meant primarily. I find 1 e4 e5 more tactical. Up till then I had played the French, the first opening I had learnt without thinking critically about alternatives.

NIC 56 unbusting it is news to me. I only got NIC 55 from a correspondence player living nearby. Much as I love chess, I try to limit spending on it (a profit from tournaments is preferable). What is the status of NIC 56's improvement?

I dislike having to find best play for both sides; one is bad enough. If you have NIC 55, follow their 7...Qe7 for white and you should see how black can improve with W's Pg3.

New in Chess 55 busted 7 Ke3 Qh4 8 g3 Nxg3?! Black should play 8...Qe7!, an improved version of 7...Qe7 when black's bishop can slot in on Bh3; I think white is eventually theoretically lost.

I started playing 1...e5 just to play the traxler. I was looking through responses to Ng5 in BCO2 and came across 4...Bc5; it's arrogance and "your neglect of developement will be punished" attitude appealed to me. Playing it in tournaments and league matches is a total pleasure, particuarly to see the differing impressions on their faces as the game progresses.

5 Nxf7 Bxf2+ is the fun line. I actually think black is theoretically winning with best play. Bxf7+ is still exciting but in a different way. After 6 Bd5 play Rf8; NCO gives an unclear game. 6 Bb3 is the new move which actually seems worse. Play 6...d6 which immediatly threatens Bg4 & sets the trap of 7 Nxf7 Qf8. W's Q no longer has an escape route becasue of Bb3.

The only line that can spoil black's fun is 5 d4 when when white can bail out into an ending after 5...d5! 6 dxc5 dxc4 7 Qxd8+ Nxd8 although I think black should have a positional advantage.

The Traxler is a unique, once in a lifetime opening; nowhere else are material v time, developement & structure so sharply balanced. Play it when you get the opportunity. 

Thanks very much ArKheiN! Anything on 5 d4?

So, Dji, for those of us without YB70 could you (or anyone) give us a brief indication of what Black's best line(s) might be against 5 Nf7 (esp. with 7 Ke3) and 5 d4? I'm sure it's not "the end" but is Black currently suffering here?

Nice, but in theYB 63-68 I think there are somes +/- évalutations even after 5.Bxf7 or 5.d4, from what you know about the subject, do you think White has any clear +/-, or Black is still ok with improvments, let's say +/= or unclear at worse?

Hello dji, and do you have the YB70? Does it respond to the 63-68? If yes does it gives improvments for Black? And give uncovered lines from the YB 63-68?

That is why I wrote this.

MNb wrote on 03/26/07 at 20:13:54:


It has been long (pre silicon in fact) since I looked at the Traxler. Without any doubt with computer aid one can find many mistakes and wrong evaluations in old theory. Eg in your line 20...exd4 also looks pretty good.
So I don't know what the best lines are for White these days. As I don't plan to play it the first 10 years or so, I am too lazy to find out.

Estrin once again: 14...Qxg4 15.Qxg4 Nxg4 16.Bxg5+ Kd7 17.Be3.
Pachmann prefers 14...Nxg4 15.Bxg5+ Ke8 unclear.

This is Estrin's main line. He gives 11.h3 hxg5 12.hxg4 Qd7 13.Bxc6 bxc6 14.Qd1 as White's best and leading to a safe extra pawn, but I am not so sure.
Estrin does not like 8.d3?! either because of Brunnenberg-Niesche, corr 1963.

Thx Mnb,

I am not so sure about the pawnsac 7.d4,Bxd4
(1.e4.e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bc4,Nf6 4.Ng5,Bc5 5.Bxf7+,Ke7 6.Bd5,d6 7.d4,Bxd4)


r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/3Bp1N1/3bP3/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -

It seems to me that after 

8. c3, Bb6
9.Nf7,Qf8
10.Bg5,Rg8     Again 10.Nxh8 is not to be recommended: 10....Nxd5
11.Qh5           White's advantage seems not so clear to me

11......, h6           Natural
12.Bxf+,gxf         And now neither 13.Nxh6,Rg5 nor 13.0-0,Bg4 look very appealing.

Instead white might choose to continue
8.Nf3!?, Bb6 9.Bg5,Qe8 10.Nh4 (unclear) as in Sergeev (2506)-Simacek (2402);Olomouc 2001
----------------------------
All in all I still think 7.c3 is best. This move was GM-tested in
Karpov-Beljavski 1983 [a game not included in Estrins monograph  ]

Here is something to amuse the Traxler fans:
A.Karpov-N. Short, 11-01-2007

After the moves:
1.e4,e5 
2.Nf3,Nc6
3.Bc4,....
3......, Nf6?  Hey, didnt Short put a questionmark behind this move last year?
4.Ng5!         Exclamation mark by Short
4......, Bc5    Traxler ! (4...d5? says Short)
5.Bxf7+,Ke7 White safest option according to many forum guests
6.Bd5 , d6


r1bq3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2bBp1N1/4P3/8/PPPP1PPP/RNBQK2R w KQ -

From here I will replace Short as a commentator :

7.0-0 ?,
                   7.c3 is probably best, while 7.d3 is playable
                   7.Nxf7? is not advisable: 7....Qf8 8.Nxh8??,Bxf2+ with a much improved Traxler -+

7..........,Bg4!  The refutation
8.Qe1??         Whites only try is 8.Nf3,Nd4: for instance 9.Bc4,Nxf3 10.gxf3,Bh3 11.Re1,Qe8! 
                     with some advantage to black


r2q3r/ppp1k1pp/2np1n2/2bBp1N1/4P1b1/8/PPPP1PPP/RNB1QRK1 b - -


8.........,Nxd5?  Here Nigel misses a move that provides excellent winning chances.
                     Was this move found by a supercomputer? Nay:
                     the best move in this position was allready found in the game
                     Bahr-Augustutat, DDR, 1971



So two experienced GM's succeeded to get 3 moves out of 4 wrong!
We'll not follow this game furhter

Instead lets look how they handled the position in 1971!
Bahr-Augustat, 1971 DDR


8.........., Nd4!!    Threatens Nxc2 among other things....
9.Bb3    , h6!
10.Nf7   
10........, Qd7      Black is allready preparing to deliver mate on the white squares
11.h3                Note that after 11.Nxh8,Nf3+! black wins:
                        12.Kh1,Nxe1 --- 12.gxf,Bxf and mate is unavoidable.
11........., Bxh3! Another power move
12.Qe3  , Bg4!    and white resigned (black could also have played 12....Nxb3 13.Qxb3,Be6-+)

I am sure white was glad to have chosen a safe variation 
[center] [img]http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.php?fen=[/img [/center

ArKheiN wrote on 03/22/07 at 11:52:40:


There are corr databases. MNb maybe checked UltraCorr or ICCF databases. 
http://www.chessmail.com/sales/ultracorr-info.html
http://gamesarchive.iccf.com/

How do you know that it isn't played anymore on corr at good level? And there still exist thematics tournament.

Hello everyone, my question is simple, the Traxler, a so pretty opening that has survived for long time despite his reputation, is it refuted or not? I ask that after having reading a NIC Yearbook from 2000, and then the Yearbook63-68, 5 articles where Martin de Zeeuw analyse all the critical lines and have a final conclusion that there are somes ways to reach the evaluation +/-

Is it (still) right? Did someone gave newer analysis to improve Black's play from theses articles? What might be the best evaluation for White or Black at the moment?