FusterCluck wrote on 04/24/07 at 19:26:07:


By being the best move in the position.  Maybe I'm wrong about this given MnB's and Paddy's ideas here, but I'll maintain my view a little longer.

Markovich wrote on 04/24/07 at 18:56:24:


I don't claim to have the understanding to make the case against fxe4.  If you have a good understanding of the reason behind fxe4, why noth enlighten rather than criticize. 

You state yourself that fxe4 doesn't work.  How can a move that doesn't work be excellent?  Is the primary justification behind fxe the hope than black will gain a dominant center, open lines, or something else that i'm totally missing?

Paddy wrote on 04/24/07 at 10:30:56:


I suspect probably not, since the Schiemann defense has been declining in popularity.  I'm really beginning to like the 5...Bc5 gambit ideas.  How much analsys of this line is in Barden's book?  Or could you recommend other sources?


MNB, the line from your game with 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 looks really good to me.  Perhaps 10... Qd6 is an improvement.  After something like 11.Re1 Ng4 12.h3, i believe the sack Nxf2 is fascinating!


So, is my impression correct that fxe really doesnt accomplish much unless black can use the open file to attack (such as in the d3 lines)?

4.Nc3 fxe4 5.Nxe4 d5 (I never have trusted ...Nf6) would be good, if Black could maintain the centre and finish development. He can't.
I don't like 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 e4 either, as Black's centre is not flexible anymore. After 6.Ng5 d5 7.d3 I prefer White.
Black can play in true KG-style though: 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.exf5 Bc5 6.o-o o-o 7.Nxe5 Nd4. Compare 1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Bb4 6.0-0 0-0 7.Nd5 Nxe4 8.d4 Nf6 like Spielmann-Bogoljubow, Triberg 1921. Still an extra tempo is an extra tempo, so the Ruy Lopeze version does not guarantee full compensation.
After 7.Nxe5 Nd4 White is ill-advised to play 8.Ba4 d5 eg 9.Ne2 Qd6 10.Nxd4 Bxd4 11.Nf3 Ng4! with an almost winning attack, Marjanovic-Parma, JUG 1979.
A few years ago I have tried this in a friendly corr game: 8.Bd3 d5 9.Nf3 Nxf5 10.Bxf5 Bxf5 11.d4 Bd6 with some compensation, Peeters-MNb, corr 2002.
White's best is probably 8.Nf3 Nxb5 9.Nxb5 d5 10.Nbd4 Ng4 11.h3. Still this looks relatively better for Black than the 4...fxe4 variations. Anyhow, this is a good choice if you want to catch a train.

I'm beginning to believe this less common version of the Schliemann Defense may be black's best try.

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!?

The normal move is 4...fxe and then after Nxe4 either 5...Nf6 or 5...d5.  I would really like to understand the motivation behind 4...fxe.   Black first offered a gambit and then after white is hesitant to accept it, why doesn't he offer it again with 4...Nf6!?  It appears to me that fxe fails to accomplish 3 possible goals of the gambit:  Deflection, Developement and Opening Lines.

Deflection:
In T.D. harding's book on counter gambits (open games section) he writes:  "f5 is primarily a deflecting move, seeking to obtain a strong pawn centre at the cost of weakening the king's position".  By playing 4...fxe black voluntarilly gives up on the idea of deflecting the e4 pawn from the center.

Development:
In Schiller's book on gambits he comments that a wing pawn gambit is often played in hopes of gaining a lead in developement.  In an ideal world, white would play exf5 and at some point black gets to play Bxf5.  The net result would be a gain of 1 tempo and development because white made two pawn moves to black's one.  Instead, 4...fxe4 encourages 5.Nxe4, which only helps move white's army forward.  Although the jury is still out, most people agree that black's tactical try 5...d5 is close to refuted and hence does not justify fxe4.

Opening Lines:
Of course black would love to use the open f file to attack white's king after he castles kingside.  4...fxe4 does open up this file for black, but it seems premature.  Black cannot use this half open file untill after he moves his king's knight and bishop and then plays O-O.  fxe4 is effectively opening lines for white, who is up a tempo and can use the e file to presure black in the variant 4...fxe Nxe4 5...Nf6.   4...Nf6 gets black one move closer to O-O so that he might be able to use that open file!


So why not play 4...Nf6 and offer the gambit pawn again?  From a practical perspective it may be a better move since it doesn't appear in the opening theory that your booked-up Ruy Lopez opponents love so much.  From an objective viewpoint, if it cannot be refuted, it is certainly no worse than 4...fxe.


Some example lines to consider:

Deflection:

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!? 5.exf5 e4 6.Ng5 d5 7.O-O Bxf5
White accepts the gambit giving black a big center.  Can black get castled quickly enough to survive white's attempts to undermine it?

Opening Lines / Development:

1.e5 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 f5 4.Nc3 Nf6!? 5.Bxc6 dxc 6.Nxe5 Bc5 7.d3 O-O 8.O-O fxe!
Now black can hope to use that half open file.  Does he have enough pressure to compensate for being down a pawn?