ChessPub Forum - The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?

kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4969 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #92 - 09/10/25 at 18:35:05	Post Tools	Print Post
	an ordinary chessplayer wrote on 09/10/25 at 16:21:23: Annotating Hort - Keres, European Team Championship 1961 where white played 8.Bd5, Keres says only that if white wants a draw 8.c3 "is much more to the point". from Keres (1972) Grandmaster of Chess, pg.552 Side note: I recalled Vlastimil Jansa writing in his book Dynamics of Chess Strategy of Keres' "brilliant calculation" and "perfect coolness" in that game. According to Jansa (who was playing Petrosian on an adjacent board), the 17-year-old Hort was so surprised by the queen sacrifice (35...Qxc1+) that he literally fell off his chair. (Jansa clearly had the highest regard for Keres, writing for instance of his "erudition" and "equanimity" and that "during our games I always had a feeling that I was playing against somebody who knew everything about chess.")


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Kerangali Full Member Offline I am every one and every zero Posts: 175 Joined: 02/12/22	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #91 - 09/10/25 at 17:22:22	Post Tools	Print Post
	After [b]8...Bb7 9.0-0, Black looks ok with 9...dxc3 10.Nxc3 Nf6 11.Qe2 (eyeing b5) 11...Be7 12.Qxb5 Nxe4, e.g. 13.Re1 0-0 14.Nc3 Nxc3 15.Qxe7 Nd5 which is 0.00 by Stockfish, but the computer gives White a persistent advantage after 9.cxd4. Another idea is to leave the bishop on c8 and play 8...Nf6 at once, followed by Be7/0-0/c5; I think this was recommended by Portisch in his Ruy Lopez book.


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katar Senior Member Offline look another year went by Posts: 461 Location: LA Joined: 09/21/05 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #90 - 09/10/25 at 17:14:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	FreeRepublic wrote on 09/03/25 at 15:58:42: Here's a quote from the original source: "( 6… g5!? an interesting and slightly provocative alternative. It’s a fun line you can definitely try if you're in the mood for something unorthodox. We’ll take a closer look at it in Chapter 8. )" IIRC Timur Gareyev covered a few of his games with this wild-looking g7-g5 in a recent video/pgn course for another website.

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an ordinary chessplayer God Member Offline I used to be not bad. Posts: 1765 Location: Columbus, OH (USA) Joined: 01/02/15	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #89 - 09/10/25 at 16:21:23	Post Tools	Print Post
	1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.d4 b5 6.Bb3 Nxd4 7.Nxd4 exd4 8.c3 In addition to 8...dxc3, Keres gives as good both 8...Bb7 9.cxd4 Nf6 Yates - Bogoljubow 1930 and 8...d3 9.Qxd3 Be6 Rubinstein - O'Hanlon 1930. I'm not too sure about either of those ideas. from Keres (1952) Offene Spiele vol.1, pg.221-222 Annotating Hort - Keres, European Team Championship 1961 where white played 8.Bd5, Keres says only that if white wants a draw 8.c3 "is much more to the point". from Keres (1972) Grandmaster of Chess, pg.552 I have a half-memory that Keres favored 8...d3, but I'm not sure where I got that idea. Maybe from Portisch in How to Open a Chess Game.


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GMTonyKosten YaBB Administrator Offline Mr Dynamic? Posts: 3168 Location: Clermont-Ferrand Joined: 12/19/02 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #88 - 09/09/25 at 09:31:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	kylemeister wrote on 05/31/25 at 20:25:04: I noticed that Van Foreest/Basso don't think much of 5. Bxc6+ (an old main line). Seems it has never been addressed in Chess Publishing. GM Nigel Davies analysed a few games with 5...bxc6 6 d4 exd4, and Harry recently analysed the line 7 Nxd4 c5 8 Nc6 Qd7 9 Na5 Nf6 10 0-0 by transposition from 4...Nf6 5 0-0 d6 6 Bxc6+, but we've never looked at 6...f6, which I quite like for Black. One problem with the Steinitz Deferred that bothers me if I want to win is 5 d4 b5 6 Bb3 Nxd4 7 Nxd4 exd4 8 c3 as now 8...dxc3 allows an immediate repetition by 9 Qd5.


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 923 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #87 - 09/03/25 at 15:58:42	Post Tools	Print Post
	Dink Heckler wrote on 09/03/25 at 12:59:56: Wow! That's enough internet for today. I feel the same way! Here's a quote from the original source: "( 6… g5!? an interesting and slightly provocative alternative. It’s a fun line you can definitely try if you're in the mood for something unorthodox. We’ll take a closer look at it in Chapter 8. )"


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Dink Heckler God Member Offline Love-Forty Posts: 896 Joined: 02/01/07 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #86 - 09/03/25 at 12:59:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	6. c3 g5 Wow! That's enough internet for today.

	'Am I any good at tactics?' 'Computer says No!'
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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 923 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #85 - 09/01/25 at 14:01:36	Post Tools	Print Post
	FreeRepublic wrote on 09/01/25 at 13:32:25: Black has to play a quieter variation. I have to take that back. According to an earlier post "Foreest and Basso ... take an adventurous turn providing a chapter on 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O Bd7 6. c3 g5"


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 923 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #84 - 09/01/25 at 13:32:25	Post Tools	Print Post
	Kerangali wrote on 06/28/25 at 08:13:26: if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov) Thanks. That's a new idea for me. Most authors are going for 5...Bd7. 5...Bg4 6h3 h5?! has been deeply explored. Following up on your line B, is the game Peters John A (USA)-Taylor Timothy (USA) 1-0 Lone Pine (USA) 1976: 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. O-O!? b5 6. Bb3 Na5 7. d4 ed4 8. Nd4 Bb7 9. Bd2 Nb3 10. Nb3 Nf6 11. Na5 Be4?! certainly what black would like to play but after 12. Re1 d5 13. f3 Bc5 14. Kh1 O-O 15. Nb7 Qe7 16. Nc5 Qc5 17. Be3 Qc2 18. fe4 Qd1 19. Rd1 de4 20. Nc3 black's three extra pawns do not compensate for the piece. According to Stockfish black is nearly equal after 11. Na5 Qc8 12. Nc3 Be7 13. Qf3 O-O. One thing I like about 5. O-O!? Bd7 6. c3 for white is that the Siesta variation (5.c3 f5) has been avoided. Black has to play a quieter variation. Although that may have been his choice anyway.
	« Last Edit: 09/01/25 at 23:00:05 by FreeRepublic »

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Kerangali

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Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it?
Reply #83 - 06/28/25 at 08:13:26

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> Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4!

Not sure about this part. After 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 d6 5.0-0 b5 6. Na5 Bb3 7.d4 exd4 8.Nxd4 Bb7 9.Bd2!? (diagram):

a) Black would like to play 9...c5, but after 10.Bd5 Bxd5 11.exd5 cxd4 12.Qe1+, White has some edge
b) that's why most games feature 9...Nxb3, but after 10.Nxb3 followed by Na5 and Nxb7, White made good use of the position and looks also better.

« Last Edit: 06/28/25 at 21:05:23 by Kerangali »

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George Jempty Senior Member Offline Participant 1996 US Corres. Champ. Qualifying Rd. Posts: 271 Location: Carrollton, TX Joined: 03/29/09 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #82 - 06/27/25 at 08:31:03	Post Tools	Print Post
	To answer the OP's original question: NOTHING That is, if Black's actively, instead of any ...Bd7 or ...g6 crapola. Instead, SF17 now essentially evaluates the Siesta variaton practically completely equal (and I don't let it just churn on 5.c3 f5, I drill in) Also, if 5.0-0 then 5...b5!? 6.Bb3 Na5 (transposing to the Taimanov), on 7.d4 exd4! Finally, if White plays 5.d4? Nxd5! I've won many online/blitz (and even rapid) games with the Noah's Ark trap. So year, not only is the Modern Steinitz playable, but it's probably the only line against the Ruy where Black can possibly notch an especially such a quick win
	« Last Edit: 06/27/25 at 23:51:08 by George Jempty »

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Kerangali Full Member Offline I am every one and every zero Posts: 175 Joined: 02/12/22	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #81 - 06/05/25 at 15:33:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Here's the link on Modern Chess: https://www.modern-chess.com/deferred-steinitz-for-black-top-level-repertoire-64...


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RoleyPoley God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 743 Location: London Joined: 12/29/13 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #80 - 06/02/25 at 12:05:56	Post Tools	Print Post
	Chessbase also have a new video/ course on the Modern Steinitz, with Tim Wall presenting.

	"As Mikhail Tal would say ' Let's have a bit of hooliganism! '" Victor Bologan.
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kylemeister God Member Offline Posts: 4969 Location: USA Joined: 10/24/05	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #79 - 05/31/25 at 20:25:04	Post Tools	Print Post
	I noticed that Van Foreest/Basso don't think much of 5. Bxc6+ (an old main line). Seems it has never been addressed in Chess Publishing.


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FreeRepublic God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 923 Location: Georgia Joined: 06/08/17 Gender:	Re: The Modern Steinitz -- what's wrong with it? Reply #78 - 05/31/25 at 14:39:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	cathexis wrote on 07/20/23 at 12:46:22: So, if you mean this one it's here: https://thechessworld.com/store/product/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1.... Also available at Modern Chess, Club Player's Repertoire for Black with 1...e5 by GM Krisztian Szabo (10 hours and 22 mins Running Time): https://www.modern-chess.com/club-players-repertoire-for-black-with-1-e5-by-gm-k... PGN files included. They currently have a sale, 60% off.


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