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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Re: 4.f3 idea (Read 79684 times)
Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #34 - 01/16/11 at 16:41:05
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Well, I suppose the short answer is that White avoids some of the anti-Saemisch systems, which is really the whole thing about 4.f3.  Also fwiw, 4.f3 O-O 5.a3 Bxc3+ 6.bxc3 reaches a position that many people consider promising for White.  An important point is that 6...Nh5 is met by 7.Nh3 f5 8.Bg5!.

After 4...Nc6, 5.e4 scores much better than 5.a3 in my database.  That early b6 anti-Saemisch system is one of the main ones that 4.f3 is trying to avoid, so I don't see why he would play that and then 4...Nc6 5.a3.  It's a game of chess after ...Ng8, a line relevant to the evaluation of 4.f3.  I have no particular judgment about it, but I wouldn't be so quick to say that White lacks his normal chances there.
  

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MartinC
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #33 - 01/16/11 at 10:32:24
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4 .. Nc6 5 e4 certainly isn't obviously better - it gets hit by 5.. d5 when Yakovich gives 6 cd ed 7 e5 Ng8 intending to send it round to f5 after a subsequent f4.

On some level 4 .. o-o is much the most annoying response. I know 5 a3 etc is OK but if white can't go 5 e4 then (and its not obvious that he can effectively) they why on earth did he play 4 f3?!
  
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derdudea
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #32 - 01/14/11 at 22:36:14
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NeverGiveUp wrote on 01/13/11 at 09:46:06:
I am an 4.f3 player, although I also play the Saemisch (4.a3) which can transpose.

For me the really critical lines are: 
(a) 4. ... Nc6!? 5.a3 Bc3:+ 6.bc3: b6 7.e4 Ba6, and 
(b) 4. ... c5 5.d5 d6 6.e4 Bc3:+ 7.bc3: e5. The latter leads to a typically Nimzo position where it's very hard to achieve anything for white.


(a) 5.e4 should be an improvement, so that line has no point
(b) after 8.Ld3 Nbd7 9.Ne2 Nf8 10.Be3 as in Yakovich - Ibragimov, Sotschi 1997, where is the fun for Black? Wherever Black castles, White can attack. In nine games in my database, Black gets away with one draw, White wins eight games.
  
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Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #31 - 01/13/11 at 15:56:12
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Oh, I don't know.  That big fat f5 square is there.
  

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NeverGiveUp
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #30 - 01/13/11 at 09:46:06
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I am an 4.f3 player, although I also play the Saemisch (4.a3) which can transpose.

I'm not afraid of d5 in particular after 5.a3 Bc3 6.bc3 c5 7.cd5: Nd5: 8.dc5: (Keres) white is doing fine. No one ever played 8. ... f5!? against me, every one goes 8 ... Qa5 9.e4.

For me the really critical lines are: 
(a) 4. ... Nc6!? 5.a3 Bc3:+ 6.bc3: b6 7.e4 Ba6, and 
(b) 4. ... c5 5.d5 d6 6.e4 Bc3:+ 7.bc3: e5. The latter leads to a typically Nimzo position where it's very hard to achieve anything for white.
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #29 - 10/07/10 at 03:53:28
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Yes, I make two opening books. One with all games, and one with 2200+ rating required from one or both players. It's interesting to see which lines start to fail for one side or the other, and how the main lines eventually reach a dead drawn position. The Sicilian defense, for example, is mapped to death.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #28 - 10/05/10 at 12:30:29
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FirebrandX wrote on 10/04/10 at 22:29:37:
Yes, ICCF has many packages as they continue to add game archives. I'd been just combining archive packages into one large file, and then I make a custom opening book based on the games in my combined file. I prefer not to include anything older than 2007 as that's generally the year multi-core computers and deep engines exploded onto the scene.


you know, that is quite a clever idea in a way. Do you select on rating?
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #27 - 10/04/10 at 22:29:37
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Yes, ICCF has many packages as they continue to add game archives. I'd been just combining archive packages into one large file, and then I make a custom opening book based on the games in my combined file. I prefer not to include anything older than 2007 as that's generally the year multi-core computers and deep engines exploded onto the scene.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #26 - 10/04/10 at 22:02:33
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Your database "culled from ICCF" is from the ICCF games archive, right? I didn't know about this resource, and now I'm a bit confused by the many files to download, i.e. there's a file with "ICCF Server Games 2008" and also a much smaller one with "All Games Added in 2008"! Are the latter e-mail games rather than server, or what?

I bought the final edition of Tim Harding's Ultra Corr Database (3A) just before he ceased business this summer; I assume he took care to include all ICCF games up to early 2010.
  

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FirebrandX
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #25 - 10/04/10 at 15:47:50
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bragesjo wrote on 10/04/10 at 13:22:01:
About a3 Be7 line, I think that after e4, dxe4 fxe4 e5! has been recommended for black. However I am at work so I dont have access to a board or engine.


Which I was prepared for just in case. My database culled from ICCF shows white enjoying a 60% share of the advantage in that line, though there are some rather drawish continuations black can adopt.

At any rate, 4. f3 was just a bit of a fling for me. I don't think I will be using it regularly.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #24 - 10/04/10 at 14:55:42
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Yes, that's an old book line.
  
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #23 - 10/04/10 at 13:22:01
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About a3 Be7 line, I think that after e4, dxe4 fxe4 e5! has been recommended for black. However I am at work so I dont have access to a board or engine.
  
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FirebrandX
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #22 - 10/03/10 at 19:54:17
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I thought I might take up a 4.f3 repertoire against the Nimzo on ICCF. I got lucky in my most recent win in that my opponent chose a rather inferior line against it, though his computer almost managed to bail him out into an opposite colored bishop ending. In the end, he relied too heavily on the computer instead of intervening with human knowledge and trading down correctly into a drawn ending. Instead his computer did just enough to lose the game:

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.f3 d5 5.a3 Be7 
6.e4 c5 7.e5 Nfd7 8.cxd5 exd5 9.Nxd5 cxd4 10.Nxe7 Qxe7 
11.f4 f6 12.Nf3 fxe5 13.Bc4 Nc6 14.O-O e4 15.Bd5 Nf6 
16.Bxc6+ bxc6 17.Nxd4 O-O 18.Be3 c5 19.Nb3 Ba6 20.Bxc5 Qc7 
21.Re1 Rfd8 22.Qc1 Qf7 23.Na5 Rac8 24.b4 Bd3 25.Qd2 Nd5 
26.f5 Rd7 27.Qf2 g6 28.fxg6 Qxg6 29.Rac1 Rf7 30.Qa2 Nf4 
31.Kh1 h6 32.Bd4 Rxc1 33.Rxc1 Kh7 34.Nc6 Be2 35.Rg1 Rf5 
36.Be3 Qxc6 37.Bxf4 Bd3 38.Be3 a6 39.h3 Bf1 40.a4 h5 
41.Qa1 Qf6 42.Qb1 Bd3 43.Qc1 h4 44.Qc8 Qf8 45.Qc3 Qg7 
46.Bd4 Qd7 47.Rc1 Kg8 48.Kg1 Kh7 49.Bf2 Qg7 50.Qd2 Qe5 
51.Bxh4 Qf4 52.Qxf4 Rxf4 53.Bg5 Rf7 54.h4 Kg6 55.g4 Kh7 
56.Rc6 Rf3 57.Re6 Rg3+ 58.Kf2 Rxg4 59.b5 axb5 60.a5 e3+ 
61.Kxe3 Bc4 62.Rh6+ Kg7 63.a6 Bf7 64.Rd6 Ra4 65.Bf6+ Kf8 
66.Bd4 Ke7 67.Bc5 Ke8 68.a7 b4 69.Rd4 Ra3+ 70.Kf4 Ra6 
71.h5 Bxh5 72.Rxb4 Kd7 73.Rb8 Kc6 74.a8=Q+ Rxa8 75.Rxa8 Bf7 
76.Be7 Kd5 77.Ra5+ 1-0
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #21 - 04/16/10 at 22:25:36
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Markovich wrote on 04/16/10 at 19:15:16:

Now there's a claim for you.


At least one GM has admitted to it to my knowledge, so it's not hard to believe it goes on in the lesser ranks. Not much of a claim when at least one titled player does it.

Quote:
And there's another.  I'll let those who play OTB sort that out, but it does look like a powerful practical argument for taking up 4.f3.  I myself don't think that White's game is so frightfully easy for an unprepared player to play, however.


4. f3 is definitely a good practical choice for that reason.

Quote:

In CC I rarely encounter a Black who doesn't know the "right" moves, but I do frequently encounter Blacks who have no idea of the dangers Black faces even in the lines that are nominally adequate for Black.


In CC, correct me if I'm wrong, databases are okay to use, no? That usually makes it harder to not figure out the right moves, if so.
  

2288 USCF, 2186 FIDE.

FIDE based on just 27 games.
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Markovich
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Re: 4.f3 idea
Reply #20 - 04/16/10 at 19:15:16
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BPaulsen wrote on 04/16/10 at 17:46:15:


Many Nimzo players don't bother learning the theory of the opening that deeply (compared to practicioners of the Grunfeld, or Semi-Slav)...


Now there's a claim for you.

BPaulsen wrote on 04/16/10 at 17:46:15:

...leading 4. f3 to have tremendous success as a result of the black player being largely unprepared and white's plans being simple enough that 1600s could probably play the white side.


And there's another.  I'll let those who play OTB sort that out, but it does look like a powerful practical argument for taking up 4.f3.  I myself don't think that White's game is so frightfully easy for an unprepared player to play, however.

In CC I rarely encounter a Black who doesn't know the "right" moves, but I do frequently encounter Blacks who have no idea of the dangers Black faces even in the lines that are nominally adequate for Black.
  

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