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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C57: Is Traxler Refuted ? (Read 153624 times)
sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #67 - 07/15/13 at 10:05:39
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Bibs wrote on 06/14/13 at 13:11:05:
I thought sloughter had been banned for irrelevance?


While playing the  Black side of the Wilkes-Barre at tournament level I was able to crush Houdini 3 because it repeatedly hit the "horizon": 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. d4 d5 6. Bxd5 Nxd4 7. Nxf7 Qe7 8.Nxh8 Bg4 9. Qd3 Nxd5 10. c3 Nb4 11. cxb4 Bxb4+ 12. Nc3 Qd7 13. Kf1 Bxc3 14. f3 Bxf3 15. gxf3 Qh3+ 16. Kf2 Bb4 17. a4 Rd8 18. Bg5 Bc5 19. Qc3 Nb3+ 20. Qxc5 Nxc5 21. Bxd8 Ne6 22. Rag1 Nxd8 23. Rxg7 Ne6 24. Rg3 Qh6 25. Rg8+ Ke7 26. Rhg1 Qxh2+ 27. R1g2 Qh6 28. a5 Qd2+ 29. Kg3 Qxa5 30. Kh2 Qc5 31. R8g4 Nf4 32. Rg7+ Ke6 33. Rd2 Qe3 34. Rdd7 Qf2+ 35. Kh1 Qxf3+ 36. Kh2 Qxe4 37. Rde7+ Kd5 * 0-1
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #66 - 06/14/13 at 13:11:05
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I thought sloughter had been banned for irrelevance?
  
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sloughter
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #65 - 06/14/13 at 12:34:00
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:55:58:
fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked


While White can get in the slow plan Bxf7ch/Bb3/d3/Nf3/Be3/fxe3/Nbd2/Qe2/O-O-O Black has counterplay. What happens typically is that Black can force h3; then Black plays g5/g4, exchanges off White's h-pawn, then follows with h5/h4/h3 to exchange off White's g-pawn. Now with all the pawns on the Queenside, White doesn't have enough to achieve a clear plus.

White has a much sounder choice with 6.Bc4. Houdini 3's evaluation never dropped below +/-

1. 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. Ng5 Bc5 5. Bxf7+ Ke7 6. Bc4 Rf8 7. Nc3 Na5 8.d3 d6 9. O-O Nxc4 10. dxc4 h6 11. Nf3 Be6 12. Qd3 Kf7 13. b3 Kg8 14. Be3 Bxe3 15. Qxe3 Nh5 16. Ne1 Nf4 17. Nd3 Qg5 18. Qg3 a6 19. Qxg5 hxg5 20. Nd5 Ne2+ 21.Kh1 Rf7 22. f3 a5 23. Rf2 Nf4 24. N5xf4 gxf4 25. c5 b6 26. cxb6 cxb6 27. Rd1 b5 28. Rfd2 Ra6 29. Nc1 Rc7 30. g3

2. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 Nd4 8.Na4 Qh5 9. d3 Qxd1+ 10. Kxd1 Bd6 11. Nc3 c6 12. Ne2 Nxe2 13. Kxe2 Bc7 14. Be3d5 15. exd5 cxd5 16. Bb3 Bg4+ 17. f3 Bh5 18. Nh3 a5 19. a4 Bg6 20. Nf2 Kd7 21.Ng4 Nxg4 22. fxg4

3. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 9. O-O Kd8 10. Be2 a6 11. d3 Be6 12. Be3 Bd4 13. Bxd4 Nxd4 14. Qd2 c5 15. Nxd4 cxd4 16. Nd5 Bxd5 17. exd5 Nxd5 18. Qa5+ Nc7 19. c4 Rb8 20. Qb4 Qc621. f4 e4 22. Qe1 Re8 23. Qh4+ Re7 24. dxe4 Qxe4 25. Bf3 Qf5 26. Rae1 Qf6 27.Qxf6 gxf6 28. Rxe7 Kxe7 29. Re1+ Kd7 30. Rd1

4. 6. Bc4 Qe8 7. Nc3 d6 8.Nd5+ Nxd5 9. exd5 Qg6 10. dxc6 Qxg5 11. O-O Qh4 12.Bd5 Bg4 13. Qe1 bxc6 14.Bxc6 Rab8

  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #64 - 01/25/13 at 20:17:01
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:55:58:
fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked


Sorry, that was a bit too harsh, maybe  Shocked. The ones I have looked at have had errors almost immediately. The rest I haven't bothered checking.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #63 - 01/25/13 at 19:55:58
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fling wrote on 01/25/13 at 19:42:46:
because they are nothing analytically

Do you mean you actually checked them? Shocked
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #62 - 01/25/13 at 19:42:46
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I have asked for sloughter's non-sense posts to be deleted, because they are nothing analytically, and they just confuse the discussions here.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #61 - 01/25/13 at 18:27:49
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sloughter wrote on 01/21/13 at 06:18:11:
The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =


I assume you mean 5...Ke7, since 5...Kxf7 is impossible.  But it makes no sense even then.  5...Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.d3 Ng4?? 8.Qxg4.

@Master Om: If I were you, I would start with 5.Bxf7+!
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #60 - 01/21/13 at 06:18:11
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Master Om wrote on 09/01/10 at 04:37:19:
Now I am in a project of Analysing The Traxler Lines with several computer aided anlysis on a Hexacore. I read the analysis of Marten de Zeuw in NIC 63,65,66,67,68 and Dan Heismans CD and  truth is I am not convinced and refuting Traxler is far from truth. I read the seven ways of refuting Traxler by Stefan Bucker who also thinks the same. Before  I start analysing the the positions I need some base to start with. First of All i should analyse all available lines. So a mild help or pgns will be highly appreciated.
Thanks in Advance
Om Prakash


The Traxler seems refuted by the simple expedient of playing an early Bb3/d3/Be3. Houdini 3 "see, thinks it is so bad for Black that Black cannot allow it. The following combination seems be forced and gives Black an exellent game. 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7ch Kxf7 6.Bb3?! Rf8 7.d3 Ng4!! 8.Rf1! d6 9.h3 Bxf2xch 10.Rxf2 Nxf2 11.Kxf2 Nd4! 12.c3? (Nbd2 +/=) 12...Nxf3 13.gxf3 =
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #59 - 01/03/13 at 17:51:10
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sloughter wrote on 01/03/13 at 14:03:24:
Stefan appears to be right about 5.d4; it may give White better winning chances than 5.Bxf7ch. Here are three move orders:  5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 Black can play 9.Nxf3ch? Bg4? or Ng4!

9…Nxf3ch (Nxe3 10.fxe3 Nxf3ch 11.Qxf3 Rf8 12.Qg3 +/-  or 9…Rf8 10.Nbd2 g5 11.a4 Nxe3 12.fxe3 Nxf3ch 13.Nxf3 Qd6 14.O-O +/-) 10.Qxf3 Rf8 11.Be3 +/-

Or 9…Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qd6 (Qe8 11.c3 Nxf3ch 12.Nxf3 +/-) 11.O-O Rhd8 (or a6) 12.Nxd4! +/- (In a similar position this is an idea of Williams) White has a solid extra pawn. White will follow with Nf3/a4. What is clear is that White has a better chance of exploiting the extra pawn here rather than with 5

Or 9…Ng4 10.Be3 Rf8 11.Nbd2 g5 12.a4 +/=

Pinksi gives as compensation for Black: 5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 9.Bd3 Rf8 10.Be3 h6 11.Nf3 Bg4 12.Nbd2 Qd6 13.h3?  Just 13.O-O +/-

Another try is 9.Bd3 Rf8 10.Be3 Bg4 11.Qd2 h6 12.c3! +/=

Pinski also recommended 9.Bd3 h6 10.Nf3 Bg4 11.Nbd2 Qd6 12.O-O Rhf8 13.Nxd4 Bxd4 14.Nf3! +/- (Pinkus recommended 14.Be2?! Bd7 15.Nf3 Bc5 16.Qxd6 cxd6! “though Black has good compensation because of the c-file and a lead in development”)

Black can try 5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Bxd4? 7.Nxf7! Bxf2ch 8.Kxf2 Nxe4ch 9.Ke3 Qh4 10.g3 Nxg3 11.hxg3 Qxg3ch 12.Qf3 +- e.g. Qxf3 13.Kxf3 O-O 14.Ke4
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #58 - 01/03/13 at 14:03:24
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Stefan appears to be right about 5.d4; it may give White better winning chances than 5.Bxf7ch. Here are three move orders:  5.d4 d5 6.Bxd5 Nxd4 7.Bxf7ch Ke7 8.Bc4 b5 Black can play 9.Nxf3ch? Bg4? or Ng4!

9…Nxf3ch (Nxe3 10.fxe3 Nxf3ch 11.Qxf3 Rf8 12.Qg3 +/-  or 9…Rf8 10.Nbd2 g5 11.a4 Nxe3 12.fxe3 Nxf3ch 13.Nxf3 Qd6 14.O-O +/-) 10.Qxf3 Rf8 11.Be3 +/-

Or 9…Bg4 10.Nbd2 Qd6 (Qe8 11.c3 Nxf3ch 12.Nxf3 +/-) 11.O-O Rhd8 (or a6) 12.Nxd4! +/- (In a similar position this is an idea of Williams) White has a solid extra pawn. White will follow with Nf3/a4. What is clear is that White has a better chance of exploiting the extra pawn here rather than with 5

Or 9…Ng4 10.Be3 Rf8 11.Nbd2 g5 12.a4 +/=
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #57 - 01/01/13 at 15:15:34
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The comment made on this thread refers to the ridiculously simple Bb3/d3; I would  add to that /Be3. One line that doesn't equalize but needs additional analysis is 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Qf8 (To deny d3) 7.O-O (Black has made a "gain" by forcing White to castle) d6 8.c3! (It is important to keep a critter out of d4) h6 9.Nf3 Bg4 10.h3 Bh5 11.d3 & White can follow with Nbd2 in some variations. There appears to be very little compensation for the pawn. Prospects of a favorable exchange on f3 looks poor.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #56 - 12/31/12 at 00:54:53
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The general concensus is that 6...Rf8 is a bad idea against 5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3. Here is a way that Black can avoid Rf8 and regain the pawn only to wind up in an inferior endgame:

5.Bxf7ch Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3! Bxe3 9.fxe3 Qg6 10.Nf3 Qh6 11.Qe2 Ng4 12.Nc3! Nxe3 13.Nd5ch Nxd5 14.exd5 Nd4 15.Nxd4 Qh4ch 16.Qf2 Qxf2ch 17.Kxf2 exd4 18.Rae1ch Kd8 19.Re4 & White picks up a pawn with no losing chances and decent winning chances.
  
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Re: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #55 - 12/19/12 at 22:42:44
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This old thread is wake-up

[/quote]If 8.Be3 is White's best I would not call the Traxler refuted yet: 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Qe8 7.d3 d6 8.Be3 Bxe3 9.fxe3 Bg4 10.Nf3 Qh5 11.Nc3 Rhf8 and it won't be easy to convert the extra pawn. Not that I would like to play this as Black. [/quote]

It should be noted that 8...Bxe3 is natural (Played in the three games given by Mnb ) and probably bad
Pinski's book 2004 and over the horizon 2007 8...Qg6 is better and white have not an easy +/- !
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #54 - 12/08/12 at 03:37:16
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 12/07/12 at 23:23:40:
Sloughter, are you saying that all four of those sources cover 11.Be2?

I don't have any of them. What do each have to say about 11.Be2?

As a side note, I see that Inside Chess Magazine 1988-2000 will soon be available on DVD. Cool


My apology if I misled you; I thought you were interested in the literature in general. The references are from an unpublished monograph I wrote on the Two Knights' Defense in 1996; unfortunately I sold my chess library in 1999 and don't have the original sources to check to see if 11.Be2 is covered.

I know the Inside Chess article doesn't cover it. If my recollection of the article is correct it was focused on Karpov-Beliavsky and improvements for White. I offered a better defense for Black but White has slightly the better of it.

Good luck tracking down the source material.
  
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Re: C57: Is Traxler Refuted ?
Reply #53 - 12/07/12 at 23:23:40
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Sloughter, are you saying that all four of those sources cover 11.Be2?

I don't have any of them. What do each have to say about 11.Be2?

As a side note, I see that Inside Chess Magazine 1988-2000 will soon be available on DVD. Cool
  
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