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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit (Read 27947 times)
Jonathan Tait
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #19 - 12/18/16 at 19:39:35
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MartinC wrote on 10/28/11 at 16:22:41:
It'll just be rather more effective if you check the extant theory. Easier too actually - its much easier to break analysis than build it up!


Absolutely.

Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 19:40:01:
I worked on DMGA. Best continuation is probably 9.d4 Qf5 10.Bxf4 as both theory and Houdini suggests it. Then i picked up 10...Nf6, and 10...Bg7 as candidates to investigate.


9...Qf5! dates back to Steinitz; and more specifically the game Showalter-Taubenhaus, New York 1889. Probably Black is just winning in this whole variation.
  
blog inspired by Bronstein's book, but using my own games: http://200opengames.blogspot.co.uk/
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #18 - 11/01/11 at 17:21:23
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By the way, my aim remains the same: Making the people discuss and share fresh analyses about this gambit. I'm not intending to create a theory with engine.
  
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Markovich
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #17 - 11/01/11 at 16:46:55
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This gambit is interesting, but let's confine ourselves to the chess of it and especially to what we ourselves, as opposed to our engines, think about given positions. Posting long pgn files containing nothing but engine analysis is quite obnoxious.
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #16 - 10/29/11 at 16:49:35
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Firstly, i have searched Chessbase Big Database 2010 for position arises after 10.Bxf4. There were 3 games with above 2000 rating.




All of them worth to be examined, nice games.


Secondly, i have analyzed 10...Bg7 deeply, and it seems white equalizes after 11.Qb3+. Here is my analysis:

First i analyzed about 70mN after 10.Bxf4. Engine gave 10...Nf6 about -0,90 and 10...Bg7 exactly 0. So i continued with 10...Bg7 line, analyzed about 50mN. Best continuation was clearly 11.Qb3+. Then analysed after 11.Qb3+ and then after 11...Qe6, same stuff happened. And finally analyzed after 12.d5 very deeply.


Both lines, = (0.00), forced draw. Depth: 30  230546mN

(Ferit,  29.10.2011)


Before continuing with DMGA, i am going to check MNb's and micawber's lines.
« Last Edit: 10/29/11 at 17:51:08 by Ferit Tuncer »  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #15 - 10/28/11 at 19:40:01
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@MartinC,

Yeah, you are absolutely right.


I worked on DMGA. Best continuation is probably 9.d4 Qf5 10.Bxf4 as both theory and Houdini suggests it. Then i picked up 10...Nf6, and 10...Bg7 as candidates to investigate.


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...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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MartinC
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #14 - 10/28/11 at 16:22:41
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Good idea Smiley

It'll just be rather more effective if you check the extant theory. Easier too actually - its much easier to break analysis than build it up!
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #13 - 10/28/11 at 12:28:02
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@MartinC,

All i want to do is make people to help to improving this line. And i am trying to use my engine power somehow. (:
  
...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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MartinC
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #12 - 10/28/11 at 12:12:06
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Hummmm. What they do unarguably do hugely better is turn up tactical resources that humans would never find. Especially so in defence. But they're still far from perfect.

Especially as you're comparing them to results derived from a combination of empirical results from thousands of games and analysis from multiple very strong players - who recently will have had computers nearly as strong. Thats much, much bigger than a single person analysing Smiley (even if that person is a 3000 rated computer!)

So, sure they might well produce concrete ideas refuting a given piece of analysis, but don't especially expect them to develop theory from scratch unguided.
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #11 - 10/28/11 at 11:40:17
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@MartinC,

Of course we can't ignore but we should accept that on these kind of sharp positions, engines do much more better than humans.
  
...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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MartinC
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #10 - 10/28/11 at 11:14:05
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What you really need are multiple engines to cross compare the ideas etc. And some rational human control.

But effectively ignoring x hundred years of strong players analysing the opening truly not a good starting point Smiley Much easier to see where the critical lines are meant to be and then see if the computer(s) can poke holes in them.
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #9 - 10/28/11 at 11:01:42
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@fling,

I understand what you mean. But i expect most presice results from most competitive engine. Maybe i am wrong. But i am not engine specialist, and don't know algorithms.
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #8 - 10/28/11 at 10:58:52
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I decided to analyze critical variations first. First one is the ambitious Double Muzio Gambit Accepted(1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef 3.Nf3 g5 4.Bc4 g4 5.0 0 gf 6.Qf3 Qf6 7.e5 Qe5 8.Bf7 Kf7). Starting my engine now.
  
...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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fling
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #7 - 10/28/11 at 10:58:29
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Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 09:17:52:
@fling,

I have organised an engine match on my computer by using Fritz-GUI. Time control was 10 seconds + 1 second increment, engines didn't use a book.


Yes, I understand that you played a match. Does it say anything at all how about how the engine will perform in the analyis of the Muzio gambit? Especially with parameters like that in the match?
  
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Ferit Tuncer
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #6 - 10/28/11 at 09:17:52
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@fling,

I have organised an engine match on my computer by using Fritz-GUI. Time control was 10 seconds + 1 second increment, engines didn't use a book.
  
...You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one...
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fling
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Re: C37: King's Gambit Accepted: Muzio Gambit
Reply #5 - 10/28/11 at 09:04:34
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Ferit Tuncer wrote on 10/28/11 at 08:23:40:
@Smyslov_Fan,
And Fritz is a trash engine for now on. I have tested Houdini 2.0 against Rybka 4.1, score was about %70. Clearly winning. And tested with Fritz 13, score was about %90! So i don't advice you to use Fritz anymore. Houdini is the best now.


I am not sure I get your logic behind this. But I still appreciate that you will analyse the Muzio and present the result here.
  
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