Thanks MNb. I guess you have answered my Q in the sense that Jones doesn't deal with the precise move-orders I mentioned, where White has been encouraged to play f2-f3. I guess that e4-e5 tactic is only strong because White has not only saved on f2-f3 but is also able to get a quick Nh3-f4 in.

In my line in (2) maybe Black can also try 7 ...Nd7 and meet 8 f3 with 8 ...Nb6 (though 7 ...Nf6, forcing(?) f2-f3, seems more 'thematic'). Of course, I make no claims for any of this! One or two of the lines show plus scores for Black in my best database, but it's immediately noticeable that the opponents are significantly lower-rated!

The 5 h4!? lines make me wonder whether Jones considers 5 Qd2 b5 6 h4 h6 7 0-0-0 Nf6!?. My reasoning:

(1) As regards 5 h4 Nf6 6 h5!, I agree with C_b_T that 8 ...Qd7 is the way Black needs to go (pretty well forced, I'd say!), and it seems to me in-depth engine analysis is needed to establish whether he's OK or not.

(2) 5 h4 h6 may look rather passive and reactive, but it was the choice of Modern guru Kamsky and who am I to argue? After 6 Qd2 b5 7 0-0-0 (7 h5 g5) we have indeed transposed to a Jones line, but Black doesn't have to play ...Bb7: he could go 7 ...Nf6 8 f3 Nbd7 (or 7 ...Nd7 8 f3 Ngf6) instead. Does Jones consider this position? -- it's the same as 6 h4 Nf6 7 f3 Nbd7 8 g4 h6 in Note '*' in my h4 h5 post above (my T7) except that White has played 0-0-0 iso g2-g4. (It's interesting perhaps that after 9 Nh3 in that note, THP gives 9 ...Bb7 but says he's sceptical, hence the 9 ...Nb6 suggestion ...) Hopefully White being committed to 0-0-0 might make quick Nge2 as well as a2-a4 ideas less threatening, but who knows ...

Maybe
1. e4 g6 2. d4 d6 3. Nc3 Bg7 4. Be3 a6 5. h4 h6!?

Simply is the way for black to play

Hi.

Michael Ayton wrote on 01/01/22 at 15:12:30:

7.a4 is very interesting, but not much explored.

Edit: Other than that. Yea there are some good suggestions in 4.Be3 lately; where it looks to be some difficulty in equalising. In the end though there is some need for more games testing all these new suggestions.

Have a nice day.

Nothing, I'm afraid. GM Jones neglects 6.h4 (it's a repertoire book) and after 6.O-O-O only looks at Bb7, Nf6 and Nd7.

Fyi: GM Jones suggests

6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nd7? 8 Nh3 c6 9 Ng5 Qc7 10.Bf4 (N).
6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nf6 8 f3 Bb7? 9 Nh3 Nbd7 10 Ng5 e6 11 a3.
6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Bb7 8.f3 Nd7 9.Nh3 Ngf6 10.g4 (9...Rc8 10.Kb1 c5 11.g4 and 9...e6 10.g4).

He avoids

6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nf6 8 f3 c6 9 Kb1 Qc7 10 e5 Nd5
by proposing 6.O-O-O Nf6 7.f3 Nbd7 and only now 8.h4 h5 9.Nh3 answering c6 with 10.e5.

6 h4 h5 7 f3 Nd7 8 Nh3 Bb7 9 Ng5 c5 10 dc Nc5
by 7.Nh3 saving the tempo on f2-f3.


Like I wrote GM Jones makes the Modern look like refuted. The only weak spot I found thus far is 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O  Bb7 7.f3 Nd7 8.h4 Ngf6 9.g4 c5 10.h5 Rg8!? That can probably be avoided by playing 5.h4 at once (my preference). WIth my simple coffeehouse thinking I say that if you are going to play h2-h4 anyway you could as well do it at once.

By now I think I understand why GM Jones prefers 4...a6 5.h3 to 5.Qd2 in the Pirc. Black can play Nb8-d7-b6 before White gets h4 and Nh3 in. Now I've gotta find out what's the objection to (Modern) 4.Be3 a6 5.f4 b5 6.Bd3.

Here as promised (in two posts) is my attempt at a comprehensive lowdown on …h5/…h6 issues/move orders. (Actually there are one or two things here I'd meant to return to/tweak, but that'll have to be for later ...)

It’s my current understanding that …h7–h6 can always be played against h2–h4, while in at least one case …h7–h5 shouldn’t be. I think the moves are best considered together rather than in isolation. What I’ve set out below is mainly an organised summary of statements (in his books) by top Modern theorist Tiger Hillarp-Persson (THP), supplemented with comments by ChessPublishing’s own Daniel Fernandez (DF). The latter’s book (which doesn’t cover h4 h6 lines, though it doesn’t critique them) is pretty recent and (see below) I don’t feel I can just quote all its recommendations. It’s in broad agreement with Tiger regarding which lines are bad, but departs from him in several of its positive suggestions. One implication of this might be that Daniel regards tabiyas 3 and 4 below as not so great for Black; be this as it may, his suggestions do result in significantly different positions in several cases. Anyway, I’m hoping that he might see this thread and comment accordingly in an update!

I’ll begin by listing a number of tabiyas (which can be reached by several different move orders, of course) following 4 Be3 a6 5 Qd2 b5, the first three of which Black should avoid as being bad for him – I’ll call these ‘BT’ and the others ‘T’. I’ll then set out some basic lines in two sections, (A) Black favours h4 h5 and (B) Black favours h4 h6 (this latter in a separate post), keying them into the tabiyas. Nearly all of these are lines involving different combinations of h4, 0-0-0 and f2–f3, which I take to be the most critical; I haven’t included other lines, such as those with a2–a4, for instance. In six places in section A (and three in section B, already mentioned in ‘A’), I’ve indicated by underline where DF prefers an alternative to the move given.

Tabiyas

6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Bb7? 8 Nh3 Nd7 9 Ng5 c6 10 e5! (BT1)
6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nd7? 8 Nh3 c6 9 Ng5 Qc7 10 f3 Ngf6 11 Kb1 Bb7 (11 …0-0 12 g4!) 12 g3! (BT2)
6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nf6 8 f3 Bb7? 9 Nh3 Nbd7 10 Ng5 e6 (10 …0-0 11 g4!) 11 Kb1! (BT3)

6 h4 h5 7 Nh3 Bh3 8 Rh3 Nd7 (T1)
6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nf6 8 f3 c6 9 Nh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Nbd7 (T2)
6 h4 h5 7 0-0-0 Nf6 8 f3 c6 9 Kb1 Qc7 10 e5 Nd5 (T3 – THP implies this is critical)
6 h4 h5 7 f3 Nd7 8 0-0-0 Bb7 9 Nh3 Rc8 (T4)
6 h4 h5 7 f3 Nd7 8 Nh3 Bb7 9 Ng5 c5 10 dc Nc5 (T5 – DF implies this is critical)

6 h4 h6 7 f3 Nd7 8 0-0-0 Bb7 (T6)
6 h4 h6 7 f3 Nd7 8 Nh3 Nf6 9 g4 Nb6 (T7)

*****


(A)  Black favours h4 h5 lines

I  6 h4 h5* →

(a) 7 Nh3 Bh3 8 Rh3 Nd7! (8 …Nf6? 9 a4!) is T1

(b) 7 0-0-0 Nf6 (7 …Bb7? 8 Nh3 → BT1; 7 …Nd7? 8 Nh3 c6 [8 …Bb7 9 Ng5 → BT1] 9 Ng5 → BT2)
      8 f3 c6! (8 …Bb7? 9 Nh3 → BT3) →

     (i) 9 Nh3 Bh3 10 Rh3 Nbd7 is T2
     (ii) 9 Kb1! Qc7 10 e5 Nd5 is T3

(c) 7 f3 →

     (i) 7 …Nf6 → § 8 0-0-0 c6 is I(b) above
                       § 8 Nh3 Bh3 9 Rh3 Nbd7 10 0-0-0 c6 is   T2 

     (ii) 7 …Nd7 → § 8 0-0-0 Bb7 9 Nh3 Rc8 (9 …Ngf6? 10 Ng5 →  BT3; 9 …e6? 10 Ng5 Ngf6 11 Kb1 is BT3) 10 Ng5 c5 is T4
                        § 8 Nh3 Bb7 9 Ng5 (9 0-0-0 Rc8 is T4)  c5! (9 …Ngf6? 10 0-0-0 → BT3) 10 dc Nc5 is T5 


II  6 0-0-0 Bb7** (6 …Nd7 7 h4 h5? 8 Nh3 c6 [8 …Bb7 9 Ng5 → BT1] 9 Ng5 → BT2) →

(a) 7 f3 Nd7 →

     (i) 8 h4 h5*** is I(c)ii above, with 8 0-0-0 Bb7 
     (ii) 8 g4 c5 9 h4 h6 is T6, with 9 g4 c5 (For the main ninth-move options in T6, see Section B.)

(b) 7 h4 h6! (Black should consent to an h4 h6 line, since 7 …h5? 8 Nh3 → BT1) 8 f3 Nd7 is T6 


III  6 f3 Nd7 → 

(a) 7 h4 h5**** is I(c)ii above

(b) 7 0-0-0 Bb7 is II(a) above

(c) 7 g4 Bb7 →

     (i) 8 0-0-0 c5 9 h4 h6 is T6, with 9 g4 c5 
     (ii) 8 Nge2 c5 9 h4 h6 is T6, with 9 g4 c5 



Notes

* Black can also play 6 …Nf6 here. Now, after 7 f3, 7 …h5 is I(c)i below (hence THP’s calling 6 …h5 inferior to 6 …Nf6 seems illogical), while 7 …Nbd7!? 8 g4 h6 9 Nh3 Nb6 is T7, which is essentially an h4 h6 line.
** After 6 0-0-0 this is the (only) sound way of responding to h4 with …h5 – and even here this can be recommended only after 7 f3 Nd7 8 h4 (II(a)i). (Of course, playing something else entirely on move six short-circuits this whole debate!)
*** 8 …h6 is T6, of course.
**** 7 …h6 8 0-0-0 Bb7 is T6 or T7, of course.

Hi.

Haven't quite had time to delve in to the book yet but Gawain Coffeehouse 2 has so far given a very good first impression.

He mentions other authors a lot and where their books meet his. I like this very much.

He more or less bashes a lot of bad Pirc lines (it is what it is ) but also gives relatively detailed suggestions against the only slightly subpar lines. In the more critical lines he seems very good at checking correspondence games and in general having some ideas.

When it comes to the modern with 4.a6 he does give an awful lot of nice examples of how to play this 4.Be3 system. Both if black meets h4 with h5 and if h4 is met by h6. That will be very interesting to check.

Have a nice day.

I'd prefer 7.Bd3 but even more so 6.h4 or 5.h4.
I intended to buy the volume with the Pirc as well, but am not so sure now.

Hi.

Haven't really had time to ponder the consequences of 6...Nd7 compared to 6...Bb7. As you allude to it is probably a somewhat important decision.

If one wants to be totally consistent with these h6 setups one would probably even need to consider if the choice between Bb7 and Nd7 is the same with or without h4 and h6 played. In other words in these two positions:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.0-0-0
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O

If there is something that speaks for Nd7 in both positions it is likely that after:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Nd7 7.h4 h6 8.Bd3
Black is perhaps not forced to play with 8...Bb7. Options honestly doesn't look totally inspiring but maybe 8...Rb8!? is playable.

As a sidenote not strictly relating to h4 vs h6 positions I still think you can consider going for Tiger's:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Nd7 7.h4 h5 8.Nh3 c6!? (9.Ng5) 
Apart from Tiger's 9...Qc7 (Tiger 2014, p.155) 9...Nb6 and 9...Nh6!? both look interesting. Quite non-forcing positions in general. Probably worthy of some investigation. My point more specifically is that having all these options with the Bishop on c8 and not b7 is probably an upside of waiting with the bishop on move six.

That's probably it though.

When it comes to
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Bb7
It does absolutely have a big point if white feels he needs to play f3. The most interesting try has to be ignoring the threat of b5-b4 and Bxe4 as white though. 
7.h4!? b4 8.8.Nce2 Bxe4 9.h5 is decent compensation in case of 9...a5 10.d5!? and otherwise you win back the pawn as white by Qxb4 and should keep some kind of kingside pressure.

If 
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.O-O-O Bb7 7.h4 h6
white can again go for 8.Bd3 but also has
8.f4!? b4!?
8...h5 is probably safer but in some sense loses a tempo so it would be nice if something else worked.
9.Nce2 Bxe4 10.Ng3 with decent compensation.

Have a nice day.

Hi.

I also analysed some options

12.Nf4!? g5 13.hxg5 hxg5 14.Nfe2 g4 15.Rxh8 Bxh8 16.Rh1 Bg7 17.Bh6 Bxg2!
17...Bxh6 18.Rxh6 c5 19.dxc5 Qc7 20.cxd6 Qxd6 21.g3!? Seems like a small pull for white.
18.Bxg7 Bxh1 19.Bxf8 Kd7 20.Bg7 Qg8 21.Qh6 Bf3 Is probably acceptable for black.

12.Rhe1 b4 13.Na4 Nd5 14.c4 bxc3 15.Naxc3 Qd7 Looks more or less ok for black.

12.a3!? Qd7
12...Kd7 Actually works here as well it appears. Got a bit sad when I realised as this means just playing a3 and waiting is not quite as clever of an idea. Still seems to have some point though.
13.f3
13.Nf4 O-O-O 14.Bxg6
14.f3 g5 15.hxg5 hxg5 16.Rxh8 gxf4 17.Rxf8 Rxf8 18.Bxf4 Qe8 Black seems ok.
14...Nxg6 15.Nxg6 Rhg8 16.f3 Qe8 17.h5 Nxh5 
17...e5? Is a weird Leela suggestion. 18.dxe5 Nxh5 19.Nd5 Bxd5 20.Qxd5 Qxg6 21.e6! Kb8 22.Rxh5 Qxg2 23.Kb1! Rgf8 24.Qc6 Qxf3 25.Qxa6 Qxd1+ 26.Ka2 c5 27.Bxc5! dxc5 28.Qxb5+ Ka8 29.Rxc5 Qd5+ 30.Rxd5 Rxd5 31.Qxd5+ White wins.
18.Nxe7+ Qxe7 19.Rxh5 Is perhaps mildly better for white, but black has potential for counterplay with his nice bishops. )
13...Bc6 
13...O-O-O 14.Bf2 Nd5 15.Kb1 Is more positional. White is not in a hurry despite being down a pawn and will try to probe slowly. Black has a playable position though.
14.Nf4 a5 15.Rh3 b4 16.Nce2 Bb5 
16...g5 17.hxg5 hxg5 18.Rxh8 Bxh8 19.Rh1 gxf4? 20.Rxh8 fxe3 21.Bg6+ Kd8 22.Rxf8+ Ne8 23.Qxe3 Is cute.
17.Nxg6
17.Rg3 g5 18.hxg5 hxg5 19.Rxg5 Bxd3 20.Rxg7 Bh7 21.axb4?! axb4 22.Qxb4 c5 With counterplay.
17...Nxg6 18.Bxg6+ Kd8 19.Nf4 bxa3 20.bxa3 Nd5 21.Nxd5 exd5 22.Rg3 
Doesn't look impressive but also not totally comfortable for black. His position is a bit split and both h6 and a5 are somewhat weak.

Instinctively 10.Nh3 with the idea of waiting with Bd3 should be an option as well; although I haven't looked at it.

Have a nice day.

H'mm, that ...Kd7 plan looks highly artificial to me. I haven't managed to have a real look at it, but 12 ...Qd7 and 13 ...0-0-0 seems the obvious thing to examine -- maybe Black can simplify with ...Nd5 and/or tee up for ...c7-c5?

Stigma wrote on 08/09/21 at 23:08:01:

Nah, until the pressure of work struck (pow!), I was partying on wheels, while protecting our wildlife.

Hi.

No worries. 

As to who comes up with suggestions... sure it's all me - completely unaided .

Michael Ayton wrote on 08/08/21 at 19:49:33:

12...Kd7 sort of makes sense ultimately though as those (freeing e8 and getting king away) are important things.

For white the computer basically just wants to play slowly and improve pieces. Even the king. I guess a good line to illustrate would be:
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.e5 Bb7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3 Kd7 13.Kb1 Qe8 14.a3 Rb8 15.Rhf1 Kc8 16.g4 Qf7 17.Nf4 Bc6 (D)


White can go either Na2 to go to b4, Ne4 or even Be4. Black has very little counterplay.

I suspect both sides have refinements though. E.g.
1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 d6 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6 7.O-O-O Nd7 8.e5 Bb7 9.e6 fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3
12.a3!?
12...Kd7 13.Kb1 Qe8 14.a3 Rb8 15.Rhf1
15.Nf4!?
15...Kc8 16.g4 N6d7!?
To activate the knight.
17.Ng3 Nf6 18.Nge2 N6d7 19.f4 h5 20.g5 Nb6 21.Nc1 Nc4 22.Qe2 Qc6 23.Ka2!?
23.Ne4 Nxe3 24.Qxe3 Qb6 still looks like a good positional grip for white but black has managed to exchange a piece at least.
23...Nxa3! 24.Kxa3 b4+ 25.Kxb4 Qb6+ 26.Ka3 Qa5+ 27.Na4 Bc6 28.b3 Qb4+ 29.Ka2 Bxa4 30.Qe1 Qxe1 31.Rfxe1
With a more simplified position.

Have a nice day.

Hi.

Some experimental thought, but both 8.e5 and 8.Bd3 are interesting with this move order (or a 6.h4 one). They seem like untried ideas though. Maybe you even try to avoid the first (8.e5). E.g.

1.e4 d6 2.d4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Be3 a6 5.Qd2 b5 6.h4 h6
6...Bb7 7.h5 Seems not good to allow.
6...Nf6 is a Pirc
6...h5!?
7.0-0-0
7.Bd3 Nd7 8.f4 
8.0-0-0!? and if not moving the bishop to b7, then some other move needs to work like: 8...Nf6, 8...Rb8!? or even 8...c6 
8...h5 9.Nf3 Nh6 10.O-O-O
Not having played Bb7 may work in black's favour black here e.g.
10...c6!? 11.f5!? gxf5 12.exf5 b4 13.Ne2!? Qa5 With some counterplay.
7...Nd7
7...Bb7 8.Bd3 Nd7 9.f4 c5 
9...h5 10.Nf3 Nh6!? but here Bb7 has been played and this is not necessarily the best version.
10.dxc5 Nxc5
10...b4 11.Na4 Qa5 12.b3
12...Bc6 13.cxd6 Bxa4 14.bxa4 Qxa4 15.Kb1 Seems not that dangerous for white.
12...Nxc5 13.Bxc5 dxc5 14.e5 Is also not overly threatening for white
11.Bxc5 dxc5 12.e5 c4 13.Be4 Qxd2+ 14.Rxd2 Bxe4 15.Nxe4 h5 16.Nf3 Nh6
8.e5!? dxe5 
8...Bb7 9.e6!? fxe6 10.Bd3 Nf8 11.Nge2 Nf6 12.f3 Looks like a good version of this type of position for white, but at the same time black is solid in the short term.
9.dxe5 Bxe5 10.h5 g5 11.f4 gxf4 12.Bxf4
12...Bb7 13.Bxe5 Nxe5 14.Qf4 Nd7 15.Nf3 transposes but with one extra move.
12...Bxf4 13.Qxf4 Bb7 14.Nf3 e5 15.Qf5!? Ne7 16.Qh3 (D) This has to be good compensation.



As for the other more standard move sequences, they are very hard to get to grips with. Maybe I will analyse out (longer not to some absurd level) a couple of the best looking lines.

Have a nice day.