ChessPub Forum - C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!

Schwebbz YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 26 Joined: 12/19/10	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #46 - 10/24/12 at 03:32:11	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, my impression is that 3...Nc6 4.Nc3 Qh4+ is even better for black (than 3...Nc6 4.d4 Qh4+), and that after 3...Nc6 4.Nf3 g5 black just hunkers down with the extra pawn, e.g. 5.O-O d6 6.c3 h6 7.d4 Nf6 8.Qb3 Qd7 9.Bd3 Bg7, so it's 3.d4 or "bust"... After 4.d4 g5 white has 5.h4, which is exactly the sort of thing white would love to see when opting for this opening.


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #45 - 10/22/12 at 18:23:48	Post Tools	Print Post
	Schwebbz wrote on 10/22/12 at 15:34:21: @Markovich, did you mean to say that just 3.d4 is dicey, or d4 for white in general after black plays Qh4? Always seemed like a thematic move to me... I meant that 3.d4 was dicey. Obviously, d2-d4 is thematic and in most cases necessary. @Tony37: Good luck with that which, by the way, is how Evans played against Fischer.

	The Great Oz has spoken!
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Schwebbz YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 26 Joined: 12/19/10	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #44 - 10/22/12 at 15:34:21	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Markovich, did you mean to say that just 3.d4 is dicey, or d4 for white in general after black plays Qh4? Always seemed like a thematic move to me... @Tony37, the question of where the queen is best placed after Nf3 is a complicated one. In the line I gave, I put it on h5 because it prods the bishop, but in other cases h6 may be a better choice than f6; when the plan is to castle long, it's nice to retain the option of pushing f7-f5.


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tony37 God Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 619 Joined: 10/16/10	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #43 - 10/22/12 at 13:30:57	Post Tools	Print Post
	Markovich wrote on 10/22/12 at 13:11:43: The closest thing to a refutation is 3...Nc6, which semi-forces White back into something that resembles a Knight's Gambit. Black's g-pawn will go to g5. White's attempt at something else with 3.d4 may work, but it's dicey. 3...Nc6 is unexplored, so I wouldn't call it a refutation. But I regard it as the most challenging. As Black I would mostly expect 4.Nf3. Most popular and safest is Bogolyubov's Defense, 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 c6. Fully adequate. I would never consider 3...Qh4+ OTB. In CC it might be viable, but I have my doubts. I would be very reluctant to play this way. The classical line with 3...Qh4+ 4.Kf1 g5 is better for White, imho. That somebody played 3...Qh4+ in a rapid game was just his way of saying that Anand was bluffing. I think the bad reputation of 3...Qh4+ is totally undeserved, you just have to play a good follow-up (not 4...g5). I looked at this a while ago (not in complete detail I have to admit) and I think a good follow-up is 4...d6, Qf6 after Nf3, Be6, Ne7, other knight to c6 or d7 depending on circumstances, planning O-O-O my impression was that black has a modest advantage


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Markovich God Member Offline Posts: 6099 Location: Columbus, Ohio Joined: 09/17/04	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #42 - 10/22/12 at 13:11:43	Post Tools	Print Post
	The closest thing to a refutation is 3...Nc6, which semi-forces White back into something that resembles a Knight's Gambit. Black's g-pawn will go to g5. White's attempt at something else with 3.d4 may work, but it's dicey. 3...Nc6 is unexplored, so I wouldn't call it a refutation. But I regard it as the most challenging. As Black I would mostly expect 4.Nf3. Most popular and safest is Bogolyubov's Defense, 3...Nf6 4.Nc3 c6. Fully adequate. I would never consider 3...Qh4+ OTB. In CC it might be viable, but I have my doubts. I would be very reluctant to play this way. The classical line with 3...Qh4+ 4.Kf1 g5 is better for White, imho. That somebody played 3...Qh4+ in a rapid game was just his way of saying that Anand was bluffing.

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Schwebbz YaBB Newbies Offline Posts: 26 Joined: 12/19/10	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #41 - 10/22/12 at 04:13:50	Post Tools	Print Post
	Hadron wrote on 10/21/12 at 21:35:49: Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01: Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4!.. specially in correspondence game. I personally Prefered 3...Nf6 but after looking how Morozevich Beat Anand In a Rapid I am Thinkin of 3...Qh4 But am not finding any concrete lines against it. Any Suggestions. Massa Om, if you want something to look at on this subject try googling 'Correspondence Chess News' and then look at issue 55 pages 15 through 61 there is a very good article by Michael Jensen. Regards Hadron. Note that the line I mentioned is also a Qh4 line: 3...Qh4+ 4.Kf1 d6 5.d4 Nc6 6.Nf3 Bg4, e.g., may be just as accurate.


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Hadron Full Member Offline Doctor, Doctor, Doctor..When will you ever learn? Posts: 195 Location: Levin, New Zealand. Joined: 03/24/05 Gender:	Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #40 - 10/21/12 at 21:35:49	Post Tools	Print Post
	Master Om wrote on 03/18/11 at 16:15:01: Whats the best line to play for black in Kings Gambit after 1.e4 e5 2.f4 ef4 3.Bc4!.. specially in correspondence game. I personally Prefered 3...Nf6 but after looking how Morozevich Beat Anand In a Rapid I am Thinkin of 3...Qh4 But am not finding any concrete lines against it. Any Suggestions. Massa Om, if you want something to look at on this subject try googling 'Correspondence Chess News' and then look at issue 55 pages 15 through 61 there is a very good article by Michael Jensen. Regards Hadron.

	I'm reminded again of something Short wrote recently, approximately "The biggest fallacy in chess is the quasi-religious belief in the primacy of the opening."
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Schwebbz

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Re: C33: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!!
Reply #39 - 10/21/12 at 09:12:37

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Lately, I've been looking at the line 3...Nc6 4.d4 Qh4+ 5.Kf1 d6 6.Nf3 Bg4 7.Bb5 Qh5 8.d5 O-O-O 9.Bxf4 Ne5 10.Be2 as it seemed to put white under quite a bit of pressure. I've never seen it analyzed by anyone else, though, so maybe I've missed something important. Any suggestions?

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Master Om Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 187 Joined: 02/20/10	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #38 - 05/19/11 at 17:10:24	Post Tools	Print Post
	Can you give the Analysis ?


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walkingterrapin Junior Member Offline Why play the Colle when you can play 1.e4!!!!!!!!! Posts: 98 Location: NC Joined: 07/04/10 Gender:	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #37 - 05/06/11 at 14:47:40	Post Tools	Print Post
	What about 1.e4 e5 2. f4 ef 3. Bc5 b5................ I have done some analysis in this line both including the check on h4 and without it. it is similar to the immortal game and the resulting positions are very unbalanced offering chances for both sides. any thoughts?


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Master Om Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 187 Joined: 02/20/10	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #36 - 04/20/11 at 03:11:06	Post Tools	Print Post
	And here is the Game Download game in pgn format
	« Last Edit: 04/20/11 at 10:51:37 by GMTonyKosten »

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Master Om Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 187 Joined: 02/20/10	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #35 - 04/18/11 at 15:02:02	Post Tools	Print Post
	micawber wrote on 04/18/11 at 08:17:58: @Master Om. Hi, well done and thx for sharing the game with us. A few notes. 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Nge2 f3 6....Nxe4 was debated on this forum by Thomas Johansson himself and Markovich a) 7....Nxc3= 8.bxc3,d5 9.cxb4,bxc4= (Markovich) b) 7....Bxc3 8.Nxc3,Nxc3 b1) 9.Qe1+,Ne7 10.Bxf7 (10.Qxc3,d5= Markovich),Kxf7 11.Bxf4,Nf5 unclear (Markovich) b2) 9.bxc3 (unclear Johansson) 7. gxf3 d5 8.exd5 Nxd5 9. O-O,Nb6 9....Nxc3!= 10.bxc3,Bd6 11.Ng3,0-0 (Belanov - Simmelink, IECG corr.,2007) Thanks Micawber. Your Analysis has always baffled and Inspired me so thinking of your methods. I am now Playing Another game . When it ends I will post here.


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micawber God Member Offline like many sneaks and skunks in history he's a poet Posts: 852 Location: Netherlands Joined: 09/07/05 Gender:	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #34 - 04/18/11 at 08:17:58	Post Tools	Print Post
	@Master Om. Hi, well done and thx for sharing the game with us. A few notes. 1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Bc4 Nc6 4. d4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Bb4 6. Nge2 f3 6....Nxe4 was debated on this forum by Thomas Johansson himself and Markovich a) 7....Nxc3= 8.bxc3,d5 9.cxb4,bxc4= (Markovich) b) 7....Bxc3 8.Nxc3,Nxc3 b1) 9.Qe1+,Ne7 10.Bxf7 (10.Qxc3,d5= Markovich),Kxf7 11.Bxf4,Nf5 unclear (Markovich) b2) 9.bxc3 (unclear Johansson) 7. gxf3 d5 8.exd5 Nxd5 9. O-O,Nb6 9....Nxc3!= 10.bxc3,Bd6 11.Ng3,0-0 (Belanov - Simmelink, IECG corr.,2007)


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Master Om Full Member Offline I Love ChessPublishing! Posts: 187 Joined: 02/20/10	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #33 - 04/18/11 at 01:02:16	Post Tools	Print Post
	Finally I tested Bishops Gambit after getting Inspired by Fascinating Kings Gambit and won it. Here is the Game. Download game in pgn format
	« Last Edit: 04/20/11 at 10:52:20 by GMTonyKosten »

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Dragonslayer Full Member Offline I love ChessPublishing .com! Posts: 248 Location: Odense Joined: 06/13/04	Re: Refuting Kings Bishop Gambit!! Reply #32 - 03/25/11 at 15:08:26	Post Tools	Print Post
	Well, White does have the first move, which makes it two when he gambits a pawn for a tempo. I did write "at least" but I guess I stand corrected.


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