brabo wrote on 04/02/15 at 08:32:05:

Well, I've downloaded the Correspondence DB, and saw this game:

Well, It seems that here white has a forced win.

MWP wrote on 04/02/15 at 07:59:58:

If we start to talk about practical play then anything can work as long the opponent didn't study it in detail. Last Sunday an FM played a line of 1887 (http://chesstempo.com/gamedb/game/1902865/ply/6) ; to surprise me which worked as I was struggling from the opening to draw. 

So I am not interested in the practical value of an opening but what is the theoretical status.

Besides I want to inform you that the 2 correspondence games won by white, were exactly in the line with 15... Rc8 and the interesting novelty 18...h6 !!!! I investigated this a bit with my engines and didn't find a way to hold blacks position.

It is pure coincidence that I know this stuff as a month ago I prepared myself heavily for the Russian grandmaster Vyashelav Ikonnikov which you by the way mention in your analysis. However he smelled a rat and played something very different for the first time in his career. It shows of course also how much respect/ fear people have for my preparations. His strategy paid off as I got slightly worse out of the opening and lost after a long enervating battle: http://www.skdeurne.be/Interclub/ICRonde9.php

MWP wrote on 04/01/15 at 19:30:10:

20. f5 Qc5 21.c3 exf5 22.e6 is already losing for black. Better is 20....exf5 but again black will suffer. Just one idea is 21.e6 fxe6 22.Qf4.
I have some serious doubts about this line as 2 recent (ICCF) correspondence games with 18.Ne2 were won for white although the black players were rated above 2400 !

MWP wrote on 04/01/15 at 11:33:46:

Did you have a look at 24.Qh5+ Kg8 25.Qg4 Kf7 26.Rb6 Bd7 27.c3? My engines don't show an easy way to draw for black.

I don't want to give away all of Negi's analysis (well, I only have a summary of it on me  so I can't!) but it's better to recapture on f2 with the rook, so you can follow up with Re1 and f5 in many cases. That's probably the setup ViktorN has in mind when he mentions the 'fierce attack'.

This is the line made by one of my friend for black..There are lots of ways for white to improve but this line might be useful for black players....I suggest 9 dxc5 is better but after a lot of analysis this line goes equal

Something has happened to the diagrams earlier in the thread?

I believe this is the entirety of the game that was played in this thread:

That Kramnik-Topalov thread contained 1351 posts - more than the number of posts of all but about 10 members. 

It goes without saying that such a record would be almost impossible to beat - although the Topalov-Anand World Championship match could be a contender, depending on the interest in this match.

Is ther any other thread that went one any farther ???? 38 pages already !!!

Since the Steinitz is getting mentioned again, I thought I'd bring back this thread.  It's virtually a book unto itself!

Are you Mr T from the other side?

An interesting thread.

I played a game last night which followed the game for some time.

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. e5 Nfd7 5. f4 c5 6. Nf3 Nc6 7. Be3 cxd4 8. Nxd4 Bc5 9. Qd2 0-0 10. 0-0-0 a6 11. Nb3 Bb4 12. Bd3 b5 13. g4 and here Black played Qc7 which i am informed is a recommendation of Ziegler on his DVD.

In the analysis above only 11..Bb7 and Nb6 were looked at. Qc7 seems to me to have some logic to it as it adds some support along the 7th to the kingside, puts more pressure down the queenside and also prevents White's Ne4 ideas in some lines.

The question is what to play for White?

I continued with 12 Rhg1 Nb6 13 Qf2 Nc4 and here is think maybe best is Bc5.   

I suspect that there is a beter way to continue than what i played.  Rybka, after a relatively superficial look liked ideas such as a3 and Kb1 which don't feel right to me.   

If any of you has the energy to have a look it would be interesting to hear your views.

Greatly appreciated SM. I will have to take some time to read the whole thread before I comment further.

Did this thread dissapear? It would be a shame not to continue this to a conclusion given the ground-breaking cutting-edge novelties already contributed!

After all the trouble I went to getting this thread back online, nobody seems to be interested in it anymore!
Anyway, the new playable Classical & Rubinstein eBook is ready to download!!

I just got a glance at Topalov-Morozevich.  Interesting game.  It started out as a Steinitz Variation but wound up looking a lot like the sharp 5.f4 line of a closed Tarrasch.

As for our game, 23.a3 could well be the best move but there are a number of possible alternatives which so far I haven't had time to analyze properly.

In addition to the moves mentioned earlier in the thread (e.g., Rf1, Re1, Rf3, Rg3, and Nd2), I am also considering the odd-looking 23.Ka1 (moving the king off the b-file; also b1 can be a useful pivot point for the c3-knight in some lines).  Hoping to avoid 23.a3 if possible, I analyzed 23.Ka1 a bit when deciding to play 22.Qe2 and I think it looks like a valid move.

I have a couple of work-related deadlines coming up, and may not get a chance to give this all a serious look for maybe another week.

Just thought I'd mention that in the Anand-Mozovich game that we keep referring to in this thread, Morozevich played 18...Rb8 in a quite similar position to the one we have now in this game. In fact, not only were black's pawns on a6 and b5, but most of white's pieces were on the same squares as well, namely his queen, two bishops, rook on d1 and knight on c3. I think it was also mentioned earlier in this thread that in these types of Sicilian positions, the rook is more often played to b8 before pushing the a pawn to a5. Perhaps it creates more latent tactical threats against black's king that way.

Anand,V (2788) - Morozevich,A (2707) [C11]
WCh-FIDE San Luis ARG (13), 13.10.2005
1.e4  e6  2.d4  d5  3.Nc3  Nf6  4.e5  Nfd7  5.f4  c5  6.Nf3  Nc6  7.Be3  cxd4  8.Nxd4  Bc5  9.Qd2  0-0  10.0-0-0  a6  11.Nb3  Bb4  12.Bd3  b5  13.Rhf1  Nb6  14.a3  Be7  15.Nd4  Qc7  16.Nxc6  Qxc6  17.Bd4  Nc4  18.Qe2  Rb8  19.Bxh7+  Kxh7  20.Qh5+  Kg8  21.Rd3  f5  22.Rh3  Bc5  23.Rff3  Bxd4  24.Rfg3  Rb7  25.Qh7+  Kf7  26.Qxg7+  Ke8  27.Qxf8+  1/2-1/2

I will likely play 22...Rab8. Incidently, I'd be interested to see what the experts think of Morozevich's 14...c6 in the Breyer yesterday.

Darn, Stormcrow. I thought I had that chess publishing subscription in the bag.

Sadly, there was no French, Steinitz variation played in Anand-Morozevich today.

Boy.

After taking some time off from chess, I come back to find the Black queen stuck on h8 and the rest of his pieces in dismal condition.  White has had to choose between several good alternatives for about 10 moves now, and is still piling on the pressure.   

Thanks to Whiteatak for taking on this difficult position!

My mistake may have been on move 3 after all!   

(I'm stubborn:  I will continue to play my mistaken move, though.)

I'm glad Morozevich is wheeling out the French in Morelia, it makes things much more interesting.  If I have to watch one more anti-Marshall or Petroff I think I'm going to throw up all over my keyboard and moniter...

Whiteatak, if Anand and Moro get to the position we have here I'll buy your ChessPub subscription for the next 10 years.  I look forward to it!

I distrusted 22.Qf2 because of Bxc3 (Rab8!?) 23.Bxc3 Qxg4, but 24.Qf1 b4 25.Rg3 Ne3 26.Rxg4 Nxf1 27.fxe6 fxe6 28.Rxb4 Nxh2 29.Rf4 Rf8 is unclear to me.

22.Qe2 Rab8 is cute. Other options than mention by WAS are 23.Rf3, 23.Rg3 and 23.Nd2.

MNb wrote on 02/17/07 at 20:12:52:


After 22.Qe2, my computer likes 22...Rab8. Perhaps this is the best place for the rook. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that this was the best move. Some sample lines I've been looking at are:
A) 23.a3 Bf8 24.Rf1 Bg7 25.Bxc4 bxc4 26.Nd2 Rb7
B) 23.Nd2 Nxd2 24.Qxd2 Qxd2 25.Rxd2 Nc5
C) 23.Rf1 a5
And I think black seems to be fine in these cases. Perhaps more testing might be 22.a3, based on my analysis with Shredder. I could well be missing something, though.

O.K. I think I might as well make my move now: It's 21...Qg5.

Cheers.

Quote:

No problem.  This is clearly a critical point in the game and you want to choose your next move carefully.  My feeling about the position is that it's complex and there is a lot of tension.  From what I can see you are not losing, but you're walking a narrow path - a misstep could be very costly.  (To some extent, the same applies to me: push too hard and find myself in a losing position - not hard enough and my kingside prospects disappear.)

Quote:

It's curious that an engine would prefer 22...Be7 to 22...Bf8.  The bishop is more useful defensively on f8, while on e7 it blocks the queen's retreat from g5 in some lines.  I think ...Bf8 must be the better move.  Although it can't be completely ruled out, it's unlikely I will play a2-a3 right away.  At the moment 22.Qe2 looks like a better move.

Imo 22.a3 can't be good. It is self-weakening and chases the bishop to a better square.

Sorry to contribute only flippantly, but which GM was it who was asked what he'd learned by playing against computers, and replied after some thought that what he'd learned was that 'the queen is never trapped'?

MNb wrote on 02/12/07 at 20:32:19:

Yes, 28.g5 looks like a great move.  I'm sure I underestimated it when I first looked (although, I'm also pretty sure the previously mentioned 28.Bxc4 also leads to a winning position).

One line (after 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Re1 a5 24.f5! a4 25.f6 Qh8 26.Nc1 Bf8 27.Rh4 h6) is:

28.g5 h5? 29.Bxg6! fxg6 30.Qxe6+ Kh7 31.Rxh5+! gxh5 32.Qf5+ Kg8 33.f7+ Kg7 34.e6+ Nde5 35.Rxe5 and wins.  Of course, Black is not obligated to play 28...h5, but I think this illustrates the danger (for Black) inherent in this position.

Quote:

Haven't looked at this yet (only 27...h6 so far).  Maybe tonight.

Quote:

I've only looked at 22.Qe2 so far (which I found convincing enough to go with 21.f5 last move) but, as I mentioned earlier, I will certainly take a look at 22.Re1 as well if 21...Qg5 appears on the board.

In the line 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Re1 a5 

I'm becoming convinced that 24.f5 is, in fact, quite strong.  After 24...a4 25.f6 Qh8 26.Nc1 Bf8 27.Rh4 h6 we get to the position which I noted that I wasn't particularly impressed with.

                          analysis position
http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r1r2bkq/3n1p2/2b1pPpp/1p1...
Willempie wrote on 02/12/07 at 10:57:59:

I also considered 28.g5 but decided that 28.Bxc4 etc. looked more convincing.  I think 28.g5 is also a good idea, though.

Willempie wrote on 02/12/07 at 10:57:59:

23.f6 looks good here at first glance, but I haven't analyzed it.  So far I've only looked at 22.Qe2, which I'm quite happy with.  If 21...Qg5 appears on the board, I'll definitely consider 22.Re1 as well.  Just haven't looked at it yet.

21...Qg5 was my suggestion, although I didn't think it looked clearly better than 21...Ncxe5.  However, there are enough options to explore that maybe it could turn out to be the best try after all.  In any event, it certainly merits consideration and I'm glad to have put it on the table.

The reason I did not like 21.Rh6 too much, is that two pieces (Rh6 and Qh3) were used to bind one (Qh8). White will have to reorganize his pieces. That takes time, which Black can use to generate counterplay. But then again, I am not an IM. So probably I overrate temporary factors.
The reason I liked 21.f5 and did not mind giving up the e5 pawn were twofold. Snatching that pawn means opening the diagonal for Bd4. It also means opening the e-file. The combination of a rook on e7 and that beautiful bishop on d4 is lethal.

Willempie wrote on 02/11/07 at 16:58:59:

Yes, S_F made the mistake of postponing the essential bishop move until it was too late, and it's been all downhill from there.

OstapBender wrote on 02/11/07 at 02:02:06:


Yes, please forgive this oversight on my part. I read through several pages of this thread yesterday, and these words escaped my attention.

OstapBender wrote on 02/11/07 at 02:02:06:


Well, burying the black queen is certainly a major achievement. I suppose the only mitigating factor (aside from Black's queenside activity) is that a white rook (or queen, if we give up the exchange on h6) will have to remain on the h6-square in order to maintain the bind, and therefore may also have limited powers to influence events on the opposite side of the board. Still, White will always have the freedom to switch flanks at a suitable moment of his choosing. One final thought, looking ahead a bit further, is that if we reach an endgame then the black king is also entombed on the kingside, whereas the white one could play an important role (a king can usually be considered a 'four point piece' when it comes to the endgame).

Well, I look forward to seeing how the game develops! Cheers,
Andrew

I must say that this thread has made for fascinating reading, and it has been a great pleasure to play through the excellent analysis of so many contributors. I haven't analysed the current position in much detail, though I would like to comment on one of the earlier possibilities, namely 21.Rh6 (instead of 21.f5 as played in the game). To begin with, I must say that I would have instinctively preferred something other than 21.f5 (in principle I think a tempo is a worthwhile investment to safeguard that pawn), although that is purely a first impression and it could well be that analysis will prove 21.f5 to be the best move.

Anyway if I were white in this position, I would ideally be looking to attack on the kingside, while maintaining the e5-pawn if possible. There are many possible ways of doing this, but 21.Rh6 certainly looks sensible, and after 21...Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Re1!? looks sensible, preparing f4-f5.
This has all been suggested by previous contributors, but the following seems to have been the last word on the subject:
OstapBender wrote on 01/30/07 at 05:35:02:


After 23...a5 24.f5 a4 25.f6 Qh8 I would say that the black position is close to strategically lost. The point (of which some people may be aware but which, until now, has not been clearly stated) is that the black queen is completely 'buried' on h8, with no means of escape. As long as the pawn on f6 remains in place, Black will have no way to free the queen without resorting to some other material sacrifices.
That means that White does not even need to decide the game with a kingside attack - he can simply play in the centre and queenside, safe in the knowledge that the black queen will not play a part in the game any time in the near future, if at all. Hell, it may even be possible to give up the knight on b3 and still be better (although 26.Nc1 must of course be correct).
Computers are a little slow to appreciate all this, as the positional problem of the queen is not something that will decide the game in the immediate future. 

Following something like (after 26.Nc1) 26...Bf8, it is not clear whether White should play 27.Rh4 or just leave the rook where is is. Now, the only complicating factor is that Black is rather active on the queenside. However I find it hard to believe that this should really be enough, given that his queen will not be able to participate in any attack. White can choose between 27.Rh4 or some kind of prophylactic move on the queenside (maybe eliminating the powerful knight with 27.Bxc4, or perhaps something else).
I don't have time to investigate this in full detail now, but anyway I hope this will help to shed a bit of light on this particular variation.
Cheers,
Andrew

I am glad you have learned from your game against Scholar: not postponing the essential break move until it is too late.  I am optimistic here.

As a sidenote, here's quite an interesting article on 11.Qf2:
http://www.chesscafe.com/langrock/langrock.htm

MNb wrote on 02/06/07 at 21:26:36:

Thanks, that was fast!

I also thought 22.Qe2 should be a good answer to 21...Qg5, but haven't examined any specific lines just yet (this will have to wait until tonight).  I would guess that if Black has nothing better than continuing with a capture on e5, then 21...Qg5 will not be a problem.  21.f5 is looking very likely indeed!

Thanks WAS,

I had a good trip.  After getting back, I spent a little time on the line 21.f5 Ncxe5 
(I'm now convinced that this is the best capture; after 21...Ndxe5, the c4-knight is not so much an aggressively placed piece as it is a target.)

Following 22.Re1 Bd6 23.fxe6 fxe6 24.Rhe3 b4 25.Nd1 I think White is fine after either 25...Rf8 26.Qe2 or the less ambitious 25...Qf7.

Although it looks like 21...Ncxe5 is almost certainly Black's best move, tonight I will analyze a couple of alternatives to capturing on e5 just to make sure I'm not overlooking some "hidden" defensive or counterattacking resource.  Of these 21...Bxc3 can probably be ruled out on general principles, but 21...Qg5 might be interesting.  Unless 21...Qg5 (or some other move) proves to be the "hidden resource" I'm worried about, I will probably choose 21.f5.  (If necessary, I'm still happy with 21.Rh6 as a back-up).

If any kibitzers out there have any thoughts regarding alternatives to Black capturing on e5 (after 21.f5), I'd be very interested (and grateful) to hear about them.

Cheers,
Ostap

whiteatak shredder,

I will be out town this weekend, and don't expect to have my next move worked out before I leave.  It's MNb's fault for showing 21.f5 to be more promising than I had orginally thought.  

In the likely event that I am not able to post my move tonight, then I the earliest that I might have it will be Monday or Tuesday of next week.  Just wanted to pass on this info so you know what to expect.  (As you've no doubt already gathered, my move will almost certainly be either 21.Rh6 or 21.f5 - I'm just not sure which one!)

Cheers,
Ostap

Never mind, I know you by now and did not feel hurt or something.  And be sure, that I will keep you busy with my impulsive ideas.  So feel free to reject my suggestions as the rubbish it sometimes is. 

Another funny line: 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Re1 Nxd3 23.Rxh7 e5 24.Qh3 Qf6 (iso Qg5) 25.cxd3 exd4 26.g5 Qxg5 27.Nxd4 and now White has solved the passivity of his problem knight, his attack is decisive! But 22...Bd6 23.fxe6 fxe6 (maybe even Qxe6 ?) 24.Rhe3 b4 25.Nd1 also must be investigated.

21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 23.Nd2 Bf8 24.Rh4 Be7 looks like a draw. I dislike 23.g5 very much. How is White going to make any progress? As far as I can see Black will grab the initiative after a5 24.Qg3 a4 25.Nc1 Bf8. That having said, I was completely mistaken about 23.Re1 a5 24.f5 as a4 is strong again.

So I tend to 21.f5 more and more.

Quote:


Ah yes, I had thought further. But 24.Nxe7+ then is more precise than 24.Rxf8+. After 31.Kd3 I had e4+ 32.Kxe4 Rxb2 in mind. As I am not quite an expert in rooks endgames, it is far from me to judge this position, but Black's rook looks annoyingly active to me.
Maybe this is something for the endgame section?

I've been looking at 21.f5 some more and it looks like:

• 21...Ncxe5 is indeed strongly answered by 22.Re1
• After 21...Ndxe5, either 22.Qf4 (suggested above by MNb) or 22.Re1 (which I am currently investigating) look like strong replies.

So 21.f5 is looking like quite an attractive move after all.  Although I still haven't found any reason not to like 21.Rh6, which also looks quite promising (even after 21...Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7), pushing the f-pawn (f for forward!) is a more appealing, straightforward plan.  If 21.f5 holds up to further scrutiny, it may well replace 21.Rh6 as my first choice.

MNb,

Thanks for your input on the 21.Rh6 and 21.f5 lines.  Below I have a couple of questions in addition to some thoughts and suggested variants on the lines you mentioned.

MNb wrote on 01/29/07 at 01:20:41:

I assume this is the 21.Rh6 Qf8 22.Qh3 Qg7 line, but I don’t know which 23rd move for White you have in mind.

Quote:

23.Re1 makes sense supporting e5 in order to play f4-f5 (unless there is another purpose I’m missing).  I still have to look at it a bit further, though.  For one thing, I’m not seeing White’s advantage after 23…a5 24.f5 a4 25.f6 (assuming this is best) 25…Qh8.  Maybe I’m making a wrong assumption or haven’t looked deeply enough yet.  Could you explain why (after 23...a5) 24.f5! is so strong?

So far I have two moves for White after 22…Qg7 that I’ve looked at carefully and am happy with: 23.Nd2 and 23.g5.  Neither has a compelling logic behind it, so I expect there are other 23rd move choices which merit consideration – one of which may be better than the two I’ve looked at.  I’ll definitely have a further look at 23.Re1.

Quote:

I completely agree that this looks attractive for White – I’d even go so far to say that it is practically winning!  However, Black has some other choices.  

After 21.f5 Ndxe5 22.Qf4, Black might try 22…Nxd3 (iso 22…f6) but after 23.Qh6 f6 24.cxd3 is kind of annoying, threatening fxg6 and hitting the knight on c4.  This line appears to work out well for White so 22…Nxd3 might not be enough of an improvement.  

But what if Black initially captures on e5 with the other knight?  After 21.f5 Ncxe5 22.Qf4 Nxd3 23.Qh6 f6 and now 24.cxd3 doesn’t attack anything since Black’s knight is on d7 instead of c4.  I’ve looked at 24.Rdxd3 here when 24…exf5 25.gxf5 Qg7 looks OK for Black.  I’m not sure this is the any kind of definitive answer with regard to the merit 21.f5, but I think White needs an improvement in the 21.f5 Ncxe5 line I’ve given above.

Overall, 21.f5 is very tempting and there are some variations where White gives up a pawn (on e5) and gets a crushing attack.  Unfortunately, there’s at least one defense for Black (based on 21…Ncxe5) that I haven’t found a way around yet.

Thus, 21.Rh6 remains the frontrunner at the moment (although 21.f5 is still under the microscope).  I’m interested to hear some specifics on the 23…Bf8 retreat in this line.

---

I'm starting to look for improvements in the 21.f5 Ncxe5 mentioned above and I think 22.Re1 is worth considering.  Following 22...Nxd3 the violent 23.Rxh7 is interesting, and here I have 23...e5 (the rook, of course, cannot be captured) 24.Qh3 Qg5 25.cxd3 exd4 26.Nxd4.  Too soon to say whether this is going to revive the 21.f5 line, but it looks kind of promising.

OstapBender wrote on 08/03/06 at 23:27:08:


I've been pre-occupied with trying to find an antidote to Shipov's improvement 17.f5 in the Anand-Morozevich game, and I've come to the conclusion that it's a really strong move. 

I agree with your analysis except for the last move 26.Qe4. I think a stronger move is 26.Qd5! After 26...Kh8 27.Qd6, in addition to attacking the a6 pawn, this creates more back-rank mate threats, providing a useful tempo in some lines. After 26.Qe4 Shredder likes 26...Qe6, after which it thinks black's fine (i.e. equal); e.g. after: 27.h4 Qa2, 27.g3 Qa2 and 27.Kb1 h6.

After 26.Qd5 Kh8 27.Qd6! the two main lines I've been looking at have been 27...Qg5 and 27...Qe8. In both lines, I've been ending up with clear advantages for white in my analyses. The best I've been able to come up with for black is: 26.Qd5 Kh8 27.Qd6 Qg5 28.Kb1 Qf5 29.h3 (if 29.Qxa6 Rc8 looks fine for black) h6 30.Qxa6 e4 (gaining space) 31.Re1 (31.Qb6 Qg5 looks fine for black) Re8 32.Qa7 (probably the best but not the only move) and after something like 32...Kh7 33.Qe3 Re5 34.g4 Qe6 perhaps black's best strategy is to just sit tight and try to avoid exchanging queens or rooks. And I'd be interested to see if black can maintain the balance here, despite his one-pawn deficit.

Cheers,
WAS